[MRIC] D-Star and SERA
brettham at aol.com
brettham at aol.com
Wed Jul 16 09:29:27 EDT 2008
Thank you for your comments and ideas.
My concern is, what do we put in our plans? We can't just turn the dial
and look for an open frequency during an emergency. We need to have a
plan so we know where to find each other, and coordinate to avoid
interfering with each other. Let's hear some specific proposals and
debate the pros and cons.
I agree using distant repeater outputs will work locally, until T-MARC
permits a new digital repeater in your area at 10 MHz off, because they
reported it will cause interference locally (even at 10 MHz off
existing repeaters, the digital repeaters still interfere and require
distance separation from existing repeaters). Also, I assume one would
turn on a different PL so as not to have to listen to the repeater
audio. This introduces the problem that someone has the wrong PL and
you can't hear them (perhaps an acceptable risk). But using distant
repeater outputs won't work for long distance (inter-jurisdictional)
traffic like MEMA's high simplex antennas that cover large areas.
Perhaps we could reserve one or two of the remaining voice simplex
channels for MEMA.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: wb0egr <wb0egr at comcast.net>
To: MRIC at mailman.qth.net
Sent: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:31 pm
Subject: Re: [MRIC] D-Star and SERA
First, thank you Brett for bringing us up to date on what was discussed
at the most recent T-MARC meeting. Because of the reorganizing20T-MARC
has been doing to remain a viable organization, many of us who are
repeater owners/trustees/operators were not notified of the meeting
because of outdated membership lists. I for one appreciate your e-mails
about the meeting and what transpired.
I believe it is important for all to realize that T-MARC is first
responsible to the member clubs and individuals that pay or have paid
membership dues when required and that it will be most responsive to
them first, and then to the rest of the amateur community second. Yes,
I am sure that they will take RACES and ARES interests into account,
but their first priority is to make sure that as many repeaters as is
possible get along as best they can with minimal interference to other
repeaters in the coordination area and adjacent areas.
As far as the simplex frequency issue goes, because of the departure
from crystal controlled two meter and 70 cm FM radios that were quite
limited to the maximum number of "memory channels", the number of
standardized frequencies for repeaters and simplex is not as critical
as it was say 25 + years ago when most amateurs were operating crystal
controlled VHF and/or UHF radios. Today we have VHF/UHF radios that
have upwards of 1000 memory channels and can operate on most any
frequency between 144.000 and 147.995 MHz or 420.0000 - 449.9975 MHz.
Hence the need for "standardized" simplex frequencies is not as=2
0
"important" as it once was. That is why I suggested we as a community
could (and in my humble opinion) use non-traditional or non-standard
frequencies for simplex use as long as they do not cause interference
to repeaters, packet/digital operations, SSB, etc. It is just as easy
for me to tune any of my radios - including the FT-470 HT that I bought
in 1992 - to 144.505 MHz and operate FM simplex as it is tune it to
146.520 MHz and operate.
What we need to do, and many of us have already done so, is to see what
frequencies are "clear" in our respective jurisdictions from repeater
outputs, other modes of use, etc., and then spread the word first to
our members and then to our MRIC colleagues, much as we did back in
early 2007. We also need to stop "thinking" that traditional
frequencies are the only way to go and begin to think "out of the box"
so to speak in order to better serve our clients and other served
agencies in times of need. For all we know, during a crisis, the
"traditional standard" simplex frequencies such as 146.460 or 146.520
MHz might be so crowded with non-emergency amateur communications that
it would be better for us to find "clear" frequencies in the 144 - 145
and 147 - 148 MHz regions of the two meter bands (and yes, go into the
SSB areas if necessary - remember we would be operating under
"emergency conditions" and I doubt too many of our brethren20or the FCC
would squawk about FM communication in the SSB portion of the band) in
order to minimize interference and maximize our performance.
We are fortunate that the Amateur Radio Service is not channelized
(except for the 60 meter band) and that we can choose quite easily many
of the frequencies we can operate on just by turning the tuning dial.
73,
Pat, wb0egr
brettham at aol.com wrote:
> This was all discussed at the T-MARC meeting. T-MARC is communicating
> with our neighbors. Part of PA is putting the digital repeaters in >
with their existing conventional repeater plan (no new freqs), and the
> rest of PA has not started discussing it yet. When someone suggested
> waiting for the national band plan to be updated, there were many >
objections that that would be a long time coming, and by then digital >
repeaters would be all over the place so we needed to do something >
soon, even if it is just temporary. This could change at their next >
meeting.
>
> Anyway, if you are interested in what is going on with digital >
repeaters, I suggest www.tmarc.org and send them an email. They are >
creating a thread for those that are interested in discussing this. >
Let's focus our emails on RACES concerns. Like: are we going to be >
able to get along with just 6 VHF dedicated simplex voice frequencies >
in Maryland where th
ere used to be 14, if they adopt their Appendix C >
proposal (soon to be published on their web site)? BTW: one of the six
> is the calling channel, so we really will just have 5 to work with, >
according to their current band plan with "Appendix C" proposed
changes.
>
> On the eastern shore it is pretty flat and I can hear Wicomico on >
simplex, which is 2 counties away. There are about 8 counties within 2
> counties from Talbot, so I believe 5 channels is going to be a >
problem. I prefer to operate voic
> e simplex on frequencies that are only voice simplex, so during an >
emergency you can ask anyone interferring to move to another channel >
and yield for emergency communications. If we "plan" on sharing >
frequencies with digital modes, repeaters, etc, there is not much we >
can do during an emergency if we get interference from a digital >
operator.
>
> All this assumes, of course, worst case scenarios where our repeater
> is down and we have to use simplex. I like to plan for worse case. We
> intentionally did not add the repeater freq as an optional simplex >
channel in our plan, so that it could remain available for people >
working on bringing the repeater back online without interferring with
> emergency traffic.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Brett
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan
Blasberg <ka8ypy at verizon.net>
> To: wb0egr <wb0egr at comcast.net>
> Cc: jkryszt at pdsresearch.com; MRIC at mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 2:13 pm
> Subject: Re: [MRIC] D-Star and SERA
>
>
> That would make sense to me. Since T-MARC seems to be aligning with >
the SERA model for D-Star and P25. > > Dan > KA8YPY > > On Jul 15,
2008, at 2:09 PM, wb0egr wrote: > >> As far as knowing what goers on in
PA or other adjacent states, I > > think the "new" T-MARC needs to open
the lines of communications > > with the other frequency coordinators
that we are adjacent to. > Since > Dave, W8AJR, is on the T-MARC
executive board and is a fe
> llow > member of MRIC, he would be a logical pipeline of information
> to and > from T-MARC for MRIC. >> >> Pat, wb0egr >> >> Dan Blasberg
wrote: >>> Most of the restructure will cover the HF bands and hardly
touch >> > the VHF/UHF bands, so there may not be much change. >>> >>>
It would be nice to know what PA is doing as far as band plans for > >>
repeaters as well since they are to the north of us. Anyone have >> >
any idea? >>> >>> Dan >>> KA8YPY >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2008, at 1:24 PM,
Bob Long wrote: >>> >>>> A local ham raised a question - Shouldn't the
coordinating >>> > committees across the country wait until the ARRL
restructures the >>> > band plans? >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>>
brettham at aol.com=2
0wrote: >>>>> Bob, >>>>> >>>>> Well said! Perhaps we
can put this on the agenda for our Nov MRIC > >>>> meeting, to develop
a formal MRIC position. Thanks for providing
>>>>> the complete SERA band plan. >>>>> >>>>> Brett >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>
-----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bob Long <rjlong61 at myactv.net>
>>>>> To: MRIC at mailman.qth.net >>>>> Sent: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:12 pm
>>>>> Subject: [MRIC] D-Star and SERA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here is the
full band plan from SERA. Please we need to be alert. > >>>> This is a
change to meet the needs of one set of p
> roducts (rather >>>> expensive as I see it) to move us into a >
direction that may or >>>> may not be to the advantage of Emergency >
Communications. Let's do >>>> a lot of research and hard thinking >
before we take a definitive >>>> stand on this proposal. Bob, KD3JK RO
> WASH * SERA FREQUENCY >>>> UTILIZATION PLAN for 144 - 148 MHz*
144.000 > - 144.050 EME CW >>>> 144.050 - 144.100 General CW Operation
144.100 > CW National >>>> Calling Frequency 144.100 - 144.200 EME and
Weak > Signal SSB >>>> 144.200 - 144.300 General SSB Operation 144.200
SSB > National >>>> Calling Frequency 144.275 - 144.300 Propagation
Beacons > 144.300 - >>>> 144.500 Multi-Mode Operation 144.390 APRS
Nationwide > (Mode = 1200 >>>> Baud FM Packet) 144.510 - 144.890 FM and
D-Star > Repeater Inputs >>>> 144.910 - 145.090 FM Digital/Packet
Simplex and > D-Sta
r Repeater >>>> Outputs 145.110 - 145.490 FM and
D-Star Repeater > Outputs 145.510 >>>> - 145.790 FM Digital/Packet
Simplex (Auxil >>>>> iary) 145.800 - 146.000 Satellite Sub-Band 146.010
- 146.385 FM > >>>> and APCO P25 Repeater Inputs 146.400 - 146.585 FM
Voice Simplex > >>>> and Alternate Repeater Inputs 146.420 - 146.480
D-Star Voice >>>> > Simplex and Repeater Inputs 146.520 FM National
Calling Frequency >>>> > 146.610 - 147.390 FM and APCO P25 Repeater
Outputs 147.405 - >>>> > 147.585 FM Voice Simplex and Alternate
Repeater Inputs 147.420 - >>>> > 147.480 D-Star Voice Simplex and
Repeater Inputs 147.600 - >>>> > 147.990 FM and APCO P25 Repeater
Inputs >>>> >
________________________________________________________________________
>
>>>>> *Repeater Sub-band 144.50 - 145.50 MHz 20 Repeater Pairs, 20 KHz
> >>>> spacing, 600 KHz in/out* 144.510 - 145.110 144.530 - 145.130
>>>> > 144.550 - 145.150 144.570 - 145.170 144.590 - 145.190 144.610 -
>>>> > 145.210 144.630 - 145.230 144.650 - 145.250 144.670 - 145.270
>>>> > 144.690 - 145.290 144.710 - 145.310 144.730 - 145.330 144,750 -
>>>> > 145.350 144.770 - 145.370 144.790 - 145.390 144.810 - 145.410
>>>> > 144.830 - 145.430 144.850 - 145.450 144.870 - 145.470 144.890 -
>>>> > 145.490 These pairs are available for the coordination and >>>>
> assignment of analog FM repeaters. Their coordination and >>>> >
assignment is determined using nominal FM coordi
nation guidelines >>>>
> and other considerations, and those pertinent to co-channel and >>>>
> adjacent channel assignment. *19 D-Star Only Repeater Pairs, 20 >>>>
> KHz spacing, 600 KHz in/out* 144.520 - 145.12 >>>>> 0 144.540 -
145.140 144.560 - 145.160 144.580 - 145.180 144.600 - > >>>> 145.200
144.620 - 145.220 144.640 - 145.240 144.660 - 145.260 > >>>> 144.680 -
145.280 144.700 - 145.300 144.720 - 145.320 144.740 - > >>>> 145.340
144.760 - 145.360 144,780 - 145.380 144.800 - 145.400 > >>>> 144.820 -
145.420 144.840 - 145.440 144.860 - 145.460 144.880 - > >>>> 145.480
These interleaved pairs are exclusively available for > >>>> the
coordination and assignment of D-Star digital voic
> e >>>> technology (*DVT*) repeaters, which is determined using
nominal > >>>> FM coordination guidelines and other considerations
relating to > >>>> the narrow bandwidth signals of *DVT* and those
pertinent to > co->>>> channel and adjacent channel assignment. >>>> >
________________________________________________________________________
>
>>>>> *D-Star Only Repeater Pairs (wide offsets)* *4 D-Star Only >>>> >
Repeater Pairs, 20 KHz spacing, 2500 KHz in/out* 147.420 - >>>> >
144.920 147.440 - 144.940 147.460 - 144.960 147.480 - 144.980 *4 >>>> >
D-Star Only Repeater Pairs, 20 KHz spacing, 1400 KHz in/out* >>>> >
146.420 - 145.020 146.440 - 145.040 146.460 - 145.060 146.480 - >>>> >
145.080 _*IMPORTANT NOTE*__*:*_ Due to the prior a
ssignment of >>>> >
frequencies in these ranges for alternate FM repeater inputs, >>>> >
these D-Star only pairs may not initially be available in all >>>> >
areas. >>>> >
________________________________________________________________________
>
>>>>> *Digital/Packe >>>>> t Simplex Frequencies* *25 Simplex Channels*
144.910 144.930 >>>> > 144.950 144.970 144.990 145.010 145.030 145.050
145.070 145.090 >>>> > 145.510 145.530 145.550 145.570 145.590 145.610
145.630 145.650 >>>> > 145.670 145.690 145.710 145.730 145.750 145.770
145.790 >>>> >
________________________________________________________________________
>
>>>>> *FM Voice Simplex Frequencies* 146.400* 146.415* 146.430* >>>> >
146.445* 146.460* 146.475* 146.490* 146.505* 146.520 146.535 >>>> >
146.550 146.565 146.580 146.595 147.405* 1
> 47.420* 147.435* >>>> 147.450* 147.465* 147.480* 147.495* 147.510 >
147.525 147.540 >>>> 147.555 147.570 147.585 *146.520* is the National
> FM Voice >>>> Simplex Calling Frequency *_IMPORTANT NOTE:_* = >
Frequencies >>>> marked with *** are permitted for simplex use as long
> as it does >>>> not cause interference to nearby repeater inputs. >
Please be aware >>>> that SERA coordinates some of these frequencies >
as repeater >>>> inputs in some areas. Check the repeater directory in
> your area >>>> to see if any such repeaters are present. >>>> >
______________________________________________________________ >>>> >
This email list is for the use of=2
0RACES Officers and Emergency >>>> >
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