[Milsurplus] Fwd: Re: "Lancaster" - no copilot

Wed Oct 4 03:49:48 EDT 2017

I’m in the UK and have a great interest in the Lancaster. I’ve been following this discussion with interest, but haven’t joined in so far as I don’t have an answer!

I don’t believe there was any formal training of any other crew member to fly, but it is clear from reading aircrew reminiscences that within a crew, the pilot usually trained up another member, normally the engineer, to have basic flying skills to at least keep the aircraft straight and level, and maybe return home, although whether he could then land it I don’t know. The pilot and engineer essentially worked as two-man team to fly the aircraft anyway.

Maybe there was a tacit assumption that if the pilot was incapacitated then the aircraft was likely to be badly damaged and doomed anyway, so attempting to bail out was the only option?

I’m going to ask around, and pose the question on a UK-based Aviation Forum I frequent.

Andy

From: milsurplus-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:milsurplus-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of James Whartenby
Sent: 04 October 2017 08:15
To: Milsurplus <Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] Fwd: Re: "Lancaster" - no copilot

Bruce

I am certainly no expert, if I find a topic interesting, I do a little research and report the results back to the group.  WW2 aircraft and avionics is outside of my current interests but I do have a few radio receivers and other items in the collection from WW2.  Personally I am interested in the B-47, the first operational jet bomber and the various systems it carried.  This said, I do admire the Lancaster for it's capability.  The Brits had some outstanding aircraft like the Lancaster and the Mosquito that continue to go unnoticed on this side of the pond.

I haven't seen anything that directly addresses your question on the Lancaster but I suspect that there was no "Plan B" other then evasion of flack and fighters.  Don't know if there was any cross training, intentional or otherwise but people do pick skills up by observation.  The film mentions that moving around in the dark when the aircraft was in stable flight was a challenge.  One assumes moving around inside the airframe was impossible when the aircraft was in dire straits.  So it seems that bailing out was hard to do.

In some variations of the Lancaster, it was suggested that the crew number be reduced below seven members so that the loss of life is also reduced per aircraft lost.  Removing some crew and gun turrets reduced weight, allowed for larger bomb loads and increased airspeed. The argument was that this modification would also reduce aircraft losses.  Sounds like what was done to late war B-29's.

So I assume that the air crews were fully aware of the odds and possible outcomes of going into battle in a Lancaster or any other aircraft, regardless of service or side.

Regards,

Jim

  _____  

From: Bruce Gentry <ka2ivy at verizon.net <mailto:ka2ivy at verizon.net> >
To: Milsurplus <Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net <mailto:Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net> > 
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 10:13 PM
Subject: [Milsurplus] Fwd: Re: "Lancaster" - no copilot

If the pilot was killed or incapitated, was the crew to bail out or did the engineer have some flight training, official or otherwise? A surprising amount of impromptu helicopter flight training took place in Vietnam so the crew had a chance to get to a safe place and hopefully make a successful landing. Did the RAF accept pilot trainees who had private pilot experience but lacked other educational qualifications?   The USAAF and US Air Force require pilots to be commissioned officers, and a collage degree was normally required to be an officer. There were  field commissions and other ways around this for exceptional needs.  In Vietnam, helicopter pilots were often warrant officers, and at that time a collage degree was not required.  I think this was also true in the US Navy during the Korean War, where helicopters were flown by "operators".

      Bruce Gentry,  KA2IVY

On 10/2/17 5:25 PM, James Whartenby wrote:

Yea, the Avro Lancaster gets no respect.

Single pilot since Great Briton didn't have the manpower.  Great Briton had a population of about 50 million in 1941 while the US had about 133 million.  The Flight engineer assisted the pilot as part of his duties so the pilot wasn't totally on his own.  Most Lancaster pilots started flying missions with less then 200 hours total flying time.  Average life of a Lancaster was about 40 hours which seems to be typical of WW2 aircraft.  Reliability wasn't a big concern since the chance of the Lancaster wearing out was remote; again the same for most WW2 aircraft.

The Lancaster had a crew of 7 vs a crew of 10 for the B-17 and a crew of 11 for the B-24 and B-29.  Bomb load of the Lancaster wasn't equaled by USA aircraft until the B-29 came along.  The Lancaster carried a normal load of 14,000 pounds in a 33 foot long unobstructed bomb bay while the B-17 carried 4,500 pounds and the B-24 carried 5,000 pound bomb load for an 800 mile mission.  The B-29 carried 12,000 pounds at medium altitude and had a 1400 mile range.  The Lancaster could be and was modified to carry it's own weight in bombs!

If you have Amazon Prime Internet TV, there is a movie titled "Bombers over Germany - WW2" which is in two parts.  First is a color training film for Lancaster crews which has good views of the inside of the Lancaster including radios and radar.  The second part of the film is the "Memphis Bell."

Jim

  _____  

From: Kenneth G. Gordon  <mailto:kgordon2006 at frontier.com> <kgordon2006 at frontier.com>
To: Peter Gottlieb  <mailto:kb2vtl at gmail.com> <kb2vtl at gmail.com> 
Cc: Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net <mailto:Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net> 
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] "Lancaster" - no copilot

On 1 Oct 2017 at 21:28, Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> Easier to build planes than train pilots?

Maybe. Even "probably". Still seems downright dumb to me. What about the other crew? 

Ken W7EKB

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