[Milsurplus] Crated new P39s

Sat May 6 18:38:11 EDT 2017

Have ANY of these rumored troves of buried NIB WW2 aircraft ever proven true? 

I can think of 3 that have not including the recent Burma rumor of buried new boxed Spitfires that burned up a lot of investor money for nothing. 

What's amazing is the number of "credible eyewitnesses" the promoters produce who attest to events that obviously never happened. The sequence is so predictable. Rumors. Witnesses confirm. Publicity. Investors. Ground penetrating radar returns that are "promising". Finally excavation and nothing found. 

The Glacier Girl P38 was real but the ice landing of it and its companions was well documented.  The excavation was horribly difficult and expensive. The pristine P38 that landed was now a crushed mangled aircraft needing a lot of repair.

The idea that boxed new aircraft would be buried never made any sense to me. 

AF6IM

> On May 6, 2017, at 3:07 PM, milsurplus-request at mailman.qth.net wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Those P-39s Still in the Crates... (Andy Young)
>   2. Interesting Bibliography of Naval Research Lab Reports (Rob Flory)
>   3. RAF  R1155 Wonders and Woopsies. (David Stinson)
>   4. Fwd:  Those P-39s Still in the Crates... (Todd, KA1KAQ)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 07:12:41 +0100
> From: "Andy Young" <andy-young at supanet.com>
> To: "'Todd, KA1KAQ'" <ka1kaq at gmail.com>,    "'Milsurplus'"
>    <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>,    "'ARC-5 Mail List'"
>    <ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] Those P-39s Still in the Crates...
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> TR5043 was the British designation of the US-built SCR-522 aircraft transmitter/receiver ? could that be the one?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy
> 
> M0FYA
> 
> 
> 
> From: Milsurplus [mailto:milsurplus-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Todd, KA1KAQ
> Sent: 06 May 2017 03:10
> To: Milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>; ARC-5 Mail List <ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Milsurplus] Those P-39s Still in the Crates...
> 
> 
> 
> Not long ago we had a chat on here about surplus property disposal post-WWII and I mentioned a friend telling me about new, never uncrated P-39s still sitting. Someone had asked where and said that it was a myth that had circulated for years and likely not true. I said I'd check into it when time allowed.
> 
> Well, I just got off the phone with oz ex-pat and friend Gary and got more details. The call was about old cars but eventually drifted to warbirds, radio gear, and so on. I asked him again about the P-39s and he quickly replied "Oh - those are on Goodenough Island, Papua New Guinea. Just north of Ferguson Island. Still there. That whole area is stinking with stuff, still" 
> 
> He then told me some stories about a friend of his named Charles Darby who, along with another fellow, organized the retrieval of a large number of airframes from the area for a fellow named David Tallichet in the 1971-72 time frame. Charles wrote the book 'Pacific Aircraft Wrecks and Where to Find Them'. 
> 
> Now, it seems Charles likes WWII aircraft and their associated gear and ended up with some 70-90 tons of it from gov't auction which Gary helped him sort and store. Some interesting pieces he mentioned from IFF gear to the radar equipment used in the B-24M, of which apparently only a couple dozen were made. A special model used for Radar bombing, he said. Was news to me. I'd only ever heard of the small number of ferret aircraft B-24s.
> 
> Gary ended up with about a ton of the equipment too, including some IFF and radar gear. He also mentioned having owned and seen numerous....TR5034(?) radio sets from WWII with service tags from the 70s & 80s on them, the latest being 1984 and apparently fitted to F-111s flown by the RAAF. Sounds crazy, I know. And I probably messed up the set number, too. 
> 
> He told me about working at a restoration center on an airbase in or just outside Brisbane where they brought in a A-20 Boston (Havoc) bomber retrieved from a swamp in New Guinea still in good shape. And about a place off Sydney where the military dumped some 3000 aircraft after the war in very deep water. He said an expedition to the site in the early 2000s with an unmanned submersible yielded video inside cockpits in which he said the gauges were still easily readable. 
> 
> Then he mentioned another dumping site off Brisbane with about 700 aircraft, mostly Hellcats and Corsairs. He said occasionally some vessel in the local fish fleet will snag one and rather than cut their expensive nets, they drag it back and leave it on the shore. Water is warmer and not as deep, so corrosion is bad - except for steel parts, which he said often look like they could be plucked off and used on another plane. 
> 
> We discussed exploding sodium-filled exhaust valves from Roll Royce Merlin engines (the Packard variant didn't use them) and other fun stuff like the Sperry automatic sighting system for the Martin upper turret. Our 15 minute phone call that started around 7:30 ended just after 9PM. The wife and daughter are in Florida visiting family, so I'm off the leash for a few days. It was a fun call.
> 
> Figured I should share as much as I could before I sleep and forget 90%. 
> 
> 
> 
> ~ Todd/KAQ
> 
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 05:43:25 -0400
> From: Rob Flory <farmer.rob.flory at gmail.com>
> To: milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Milsurplus] Interesting Bibliography of Naval Research Lab
>    Reports
> Message-ID:
>    <CAFcNxxXfwJ+CxH6pX3gcm=6ZiTTswxWY4AwhOZBAdt3CLiYUVg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi,
> I was digging in my computer and stumbled upon something I must have tucked
> away for future reference.  This bibliography covers reports done at NRL in
> the years immediately leading up to WWII and during the war.  There are
> lots of titles like, "tests of model TBO radio equipment"  "Tests of
> vertical transmitting antenna for USS North Carolina" and the like.
> 
> http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=AD0402910
> 
> An awful lot of the reports are on electronic equipment.  Next step, how
> does one get a hold of the individual reports?
> 
> https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/mcclung/inv/037.html
> 
> RF
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 13:17:16 -0500
> From: "David Stinson" <arc5 at ix.netcom.com>
> To: <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>,    "ARC-5" <arc5 at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Milsurplus] RAF  R1155 Wonders and Woopsies.
> Message-ID: <58E80368BB774422A376F5BEF1872521 at DaddyPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>    reply-type=original
> 
> RAF: R1155 Wonders and Woopsies.
> 
> The R1155 project continues 10 mins here, an
> hour there.  Work and life keep interfereing 
> with the important stuff! :-)
> 
> Refurbishing the type 13 tuning mechanism.
> There is a YouTube video that discusses this.
> I recommend it.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n7fQcQDDJI
> 
> A couple of important notes:
> Note that little knob "set screw" with the small post
> that fixes the "fast tune" knob- once your unscrew
> it enough to remove the knob, the screw is fully
> dis-engaged from the threads!  If you turn the knob
> upside-down, the screw will fall out, the
> Screw-Gremlins will grab it and you can forget
> ever, ever finding one like it.  Careful!
> Also:  Getting this screw engaged in that hole again
> is a booger-bear.  I think the bad rep of the type 13
> tuning mech probably comes from struggling to 
> get this blasted screw back in place.
> 
> I didn't use cardboard to replace the old cork
> friction bed.  I used green hobby felt like you 
> can find at any WallyWorld.
> https://goo.gl/photos/TNpyySto3rH6Eda88
> 
> The "Star Spring:"  the YouTube fellow says his
> was "sprung" to 3mm.  Mine was 1.2 mm and flexing
> it to 3mm made it drag so hard that the "slow" knob
> would turn the "fast" knob as well.  1.2 mm worked
> for me.
> 
> There are three gimbles inside the "slow tuning" knob.
> They get dirty.  I cleaned them with naptha (lighter fluid)
> and put a drop of oil on each end.  Don't, don't drop 
> them.  The screw gremlins lust after these.  They will
> be gone and you will find them the same place as
> that weird pig-tail knob set screw- Nowhere.
> 
> This is how mine came off- Note the gimbles are 
> conical.  One of them was facing the wrong way,
> which munged the tuning.  The small ends should
> face inward.
> https://goo.gl/photos/Wt5WACjqukAitg7E7
> 
> Had to adjust the "star spring" tension and 
> place a drop of oil on the brass washer.
> Now works smoothly and as it should.
> If someone knows an easy way to re-engage
> that stupid "screw with a tail," knob set screw,
> please tell us.
> 
> Low B+ tests:
> The minimum B+ needed to start the LO reliably
> on all bands is about 100V.  If one can live with
> a couple of small dead spots for the sake of preservation
> (and I can), it will play well as low as 75-80V.
> 
> I've aligned the set and, for a wonder,
> had it playing on the bench for 2 hours 
> without any parts changes and no "creeping current" 
> rises.  All seems well.
> https://goo.gl/photos/tGKUMy5tzjGUeua77
> https://goo.gl/photos/fLxk4wh3HQFJHKqX9
> 
> But "too good to be true"  keeps tugging on 
> my hair.  So I thought I'd unsolder at least a couple
> of leads from the triple .1 bypass cans and test them.
> I tried to unsolder a lead and the formerly nice and
> supple rubber split and peeled back.
> Red wire connected to the upper left at
> the "postage stamp" mica.
> https://goo.gl/photos/ihKkFFCCPoyGpCLD6
> I refuse to accept this kind of damage just to 
> chase a "problem" that doesn't seem to exist.
> 
> I will make some resistance measurements and
> tack some modern resistors across older ones
> that have drifted high, but other than that I will
> make no repairs unless there is a stage failure
> and then only that stage.  
> 
> I'm debating whether to take the dial cover off
> and clean the inside.  The plastic is good and
> the dial itself is clean, but dismantling this might
> lead to cracks or flakes.  I can live with a little
> crud vs. inflicting damage.
> 
> Still much more to do.  I think I'm not going to 
> be so lucky with the DF circuits; we'll see.
> All the photos/videos so far are available at:
> https://goo.gl/photos/2xzNu7dc46UakF7d8
> 
> My thanks again to the members of our great
> community who have provided info, docs and 
> wisdom that make a project like this possible.
> 
> GL OM DE Dave AB5S
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 18:07:23 -0400
> From: "Todd, KA1KAQ" <ka1kaq at gmail.com>
> To: Milsurplus <milsurplus at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Milsurplus] Fwd:  Those P-39s Still in the Crates...
> Message-ID:
>    <CANCs6AUe3JgaFXEiJ8otTWp1h=SiFyV3+KM6knTKXCFHPnC6BA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> This reply should have also gone to the list but apparently I sent it only
> to Hue. My apologies - was up waaaay past my bedtime getting stuff done.
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Todd, KA1KAQ <ka1kaq at gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, May 6, 2017 at 1:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Milsurplus] Those P-39s Still in the Crates...
> To: Hubert Miller <Kargo_cult at msn.com>
> 
> 
>> On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Hubert Miller <Kargo_cult at msn.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I love the stories but i have learned to retain some healthy skepticism.
>> Wiki says the variant based with RAAF on Goodenough Island was the
>> Kittyhawk, P-40.
>> 
> 
> And we know it must be true if it's on the internet. (o:
> 
> Actually, I don't think anyone ever said otherwise, Hue. I certainly
> didn't, nor did my friend Gary. In fact, he told me that Charles has a
> fully restored, fully functional P-40N model that he recovered from the
> area back in the 70s and restored. He did say that new P-39s were dropped
> there and never uncrated due to the pace of the island hopping campaign.
> Tonight he said they just redirected the next ship full of supplies to the
> new location and left most everything behind.
> 
> If you look a little further on the Wrecks site, you can find this:
> 
> http://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-39/42-19993.html
> 
> And a quote from Mr Darby himself:
> 
> "In the course of these operations about 30 aircraft were recovered
> including P-40s, P-39s, an A-20, Boomerangs, and Spitfires"
> 
> Which, along with numerous photos, certainly shows they were used in the
> PNG area. To be honest, I'm not sure why the P-39 would be used as a
> replacement for the P-40 - more likely a case of 'what's available off the
> shelf'.
> 
> As for remnants, think about this logically, after years of Japanese,
>> Australian, and American collectors searching the jungles and cutting deals
>> the natives.
>> 
> 
> Yes, well....it's a logical enough notion to have, until you factor in that
> searching the jungles over there isn't anything like taking a hike through
> the woods here. Heat, humidity, bugs, swamps, monsoons and the rest. I
> think there was likely a flurry of activity early on for the long-hanging
> fruit that was easy to recover, before the government got too deeply
> interested. And again - Gary didn't claim there were still airfields packed
> with aircraft and equipment, merely that there is still a lot of 'stuff'
> out there - planes, buildings, trucks, parts, etc etc. But also - much of
> the searching has been based on finds that natives and others have stumbled
> across over the years. I doubt there have been many random searches taking
> place. The P-61 Black Widow project is a perfect example: they knew it was
> there and someone eventually recovered it.
> 
> Here's another quote from Mr Darby about that very thing. Seems it's been a
> popular theme throughout the decades:
> 
> "Another lesson was never to believe that "there is nothing left there".
> After weeks of work involving dozens of people at the American end of one
> of the Tadji strips, with all the aircraft we wanted already recovered, all
> our equipment removed, and all personnel gone, I stayed behind to do one
> last scour of the area for dropped tools etc. And found a large dump of
> corroding antipersonnel bombs stretching for several yards (OK, metres)
> within inches (cm, if you insist) of our main vehicle access track into the
> area. Then it started to rain, and since there were no more aircraft to use
> as shelter I moved into the regrowth scrub beside where the now-recovered
> aircraft had been. And there was a complete P-39N named "Small Fry". Same
> thing happened at Nadzab: "experts" told us there was nothing left, but we
> found the remains of 22 aircraft in one single afternoon, several of which
> were salvaged."
> 
> 
>> As to the 3000 aircraft dumped at sea in one area, i was saying to myself,
>> "Hmmmm......3000 ? "
>> Think about the logistics of concentrating 3000 aircraft from remote areas
>> to one dump site. And then you might ask yourself, "Why?"
>> 
> 
> And I might answer "Because it's deep, and the ocean is large". I'm not
> sure it was a matter of bringing them all there from remote areas to dump,
> that's an assumption. It more likely took place over months, maybe years.
> Gary got the figures from the archives there, where he spent considerable
> time doing research. I'm not sure if that's where he saw the video as well.
> He mentioned that many of the radio pieces he got had the aircraft SN
> stenciled on them so it was relatively easy to get the history of a
> specific piece of gear.
> 
> He did also tell me about another auction of aircraft that took place many
> years ago, mostly P-40s and Corsairs. He said they flew all these aircraft
> in and serviced them all back to good condition. When I asked why, he said
> they expected to get good money for them. But no one bid, and they sat
> around for some time. Eventually he said the entire lot was sold to one
> scrapper for 10,000 pounds total. Can't remember how many hundred aircraft,
> but a lot.
> 
> 
>> On a related thought, it quite astonishes me how quickly, once a
>> technology is superseded, the old technology is swept from the table. In a
>> more perfect world, "someone", that is some government agencies,
>> would try to preserve at least one each of everything made.
> 
> 
> If you read Charles Darby's comments on the Wrecks site, he more or less
> covers that in describing how museums and governments have a way of
> disposing of things they should keep, depending on the political winds at
> the time or who is in charge.
> 
> "Often these events result from the actions of uninterested "time-servers"
> in positions of authority, where a private individual interested in
> aviation history would never have acted in such a manner."
> 
> 
>> That would apply to electronics too, but it is not to be. In many cases,
>> it's up to us to preserve, altho it doesn't pay well at all.
>> 
> 
> The only reward is the enjoyment and satisfaction we get from it, Hue,
> because we have some appreciation from whence it came. We revere those who
> were young men and women then, who built the equipment, flew the aircraft,
> fought the enemies of all we believe in. Hard to put a value on holding a
> piece of that history in your hands. Though I reluctantly admit, going
> forward that appreciation will diminish as it's shared by fewer and fewer
> with some knowledge of that time.
> 
> Gary is going to send me Charles' email address and contact him to let him
> know I'll be emailing. We're going to talk about radio gear but I'll ask
> him more about the P-39s in crates and the recovery of items over there in
> general. I doubt anyone would know more or better than him since he spent
> years doing it. My main question is - why hasn't anyone gone back to get
> them? Inaccessible location? Too far gone now? I mean, even if you still
> have to add wings and a prop, it's a pretty good start.
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