[MilCom] Willow Run

[Jesse]

Ken wrote:
> Hello Jesse & the group:
>
> Please See comments below:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse" <xraywolf at comcast.net>
> To: <milcom at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [MilCom] Willow Run
>
>
>> John A. Collmer wrote:
>>> Good Morning, does anyone have any frequencies from last years 
>>> Willow Run (Thunder over Michigan) Show? Also any insights/tips 
>>> would be appreciated.
>>>
>
>> Went to todays practice and fly-ins ... Pretty slow. Other than the 
>> Blues, the only jet flyer was an F-16 demo.
>> Bunch of warbirds flying formation - At least 4 B-25's along with 
>> what looked to be a couple of P-47's, a Mustang and a batch of Texans.
>> A couple of A-10's flew in after the Blues landed, other than that 
>> the whole show seems to be stunt flying.
>
> COMMENT:  Their website indicates what one can expect -- What you see 
> as scheduled on the website is what you we see for your money!

True. I was making an observation, I think an accurate one.
If one is into military jets, other than the Angels, this has very 
little to offer.
>
>> I have a good spot staked out off of Rawsonville road - Very likely 
>> will be hard to get to on shows days, as the law tends to block off 
>> access
>> to any roads that lead other than straight to the parking areas.
>
> COMMENT:  Blocking off certain roads around airshows for traffic & 
> crowd control is very common.

Don't recall saying it was uncommon.
If you are with the Thunder over Michigan commission, just let me know, 
but I think you are reading more into my observations than necessary.
I am not trying to slam this event - The guy asked for suggestions, I 
gave some.
>
>> $20 admission per person & $5 parking I think is close to a rip off 
>> myself and, since there does not appear there will be a whole lot 
>> static wise
>
> COMMENT:  Does appear to be very pricy for what is provided.  HOWEVER, 
> if tickets were bought in March 2007 they were only $10.00 each.  A 
> little preplanning would have saved 50%!

Yeah, and a little rain storm I would have been out of $80.
Not going to make or break many people, true.
When you got 5 kids, every $ counts.
>
> anyhow, I am
>> going to stake out a spot outside the airport, somewhere along the 
>> approach line.
>> As most here know, the Blues or T-Birds do not allow crowds to gather 
>> anywhere near either side of the runway [approach or departure], so 
>> some improvising is necessary
>> if one wishes to have a decent spot outside of show.
>
> COMMENT:  The FAA determines the rules for aero demonstrations, and 
> how close aircraft can fly to the crowd show line.  The purpose is to 
> allow a safety margin in case anything should go wrong with the 
> aircraft or there's human error that results in a collision of aircraft.

Ok, so what does that have to do with what I said "some improvising is 
necessary
if one wishes to have a decent spot outside of show".?
I usually am not part of the crowd line and, in fact, have a much better 
view than anyone in the crowd.
Not too many years ago we could, and did, camp right out on the end of 
the runways for a whole show with no problems.
That is not possible anymore, but at many places, you still can ... 
Until a half hour or so before the Blues or T-Birds take to the air, 
then they block off roads
and boot out anyone too close to either end.
>
>> Aside from the dearth of jet powered attractions, another thing that 
>> soured me on Willow Run shows is, last year they actually made the 
>> crowd bake out on the tarmac.
>> Thats right, with square acres of grass everywhere around, they made 
>> the crowd sweat it out on asphalt for half a day on a 90 degree day. 
>> There was 100's of people sitting under the wings
>> of an AWACS craft, the only shade around.
>> I have been to dozens if not hundreds of airshows over the years, and 
>> have never seen this happen anywhere but there...
>> I personally can stand the heat, my young pre-teen girls can not, and 
>> I was fairly livid at a bone head set up like that, and still am.
>> Will they do it again this year ? Don't know, but really am not 
>> inclined to pay $100 to find out.
>
> COMMENT:  MOST airshows basically have a hot tarmac that everyone is 
> confined to, because that's where the show is!!!  Most do not have 
> grass areas to lay on.  Personally, I'd like it if all airshows where 
> in the spring, or fall, NOT the summer, cause the heat can be very 
> physically draining, especially if you have to drive home for 1+ 
> hours.  One has to take into consideration the physical stress that 
> can be caused by the weather and take appropriate precautions.  
> Airshow sponsors generally have very good emergency medical support 
> and assistance in case the weather causes some health problems.

Rubbish. I have never been to another airshow where crowds are confined 
to hot tarmacs. I have been to shows all over the country, and all over 
the world
as a 16 year USMC vet, overs a period of decades.  I do not recall 
crowds being herded to tarmacs. Most airfields have plenty of grassy 
spaces parallel to runways.
You'd be hard pressed to find one that does not - And these work just 
great for crowds. Who is talking about "laying around" at an airshow ?
This is common sense. You do not put crowds of people, on a 90 degree 
day, on a boiling tarmac, where the heat can easily be 20-30 degrees 
hotter than
on the grass.
Aircraft can take it, people can not.
>
>> If you do go in, since they do not allow coolers, my advice would be 
>> to freeze some plastic water bottles overnight and bring them.
>> They price gouge on selling refreshments also.
> COMMENT:  Unfortunately, having ice at most shows, has been a security 
> no no for entrance into the show area.  So I'd suggest this NOT be 
> done.  Also doesn't part of the show proceeds go to charity (and the 
> various stands are run by various charity organizations)?  It is 
> typical that a standard price be set for all refreshment stands 
> throughout the airshow.  This is even done on AF bases.   Remember the 
> show has to be self supporting and not loose money for things like the 
> tent rentals, and perhaps even some insurance requirements.

As to the first, this from the airshow site itself  "Yes, you can bring 
in non-alcoholic beverages in plastic containers that have been frozen."
http://www.yankeeairmuseum.org/airshow/restrictions.htm
So much for that suggestion. May be valid at other venues, I don't know.
Since this recent total ban on coolers, I have always taken in frozen 
water with me to shows when I go in, never had a problem.
I generally just take my scanners, lawn [or tarmac] blanket, some 
binocs, sunscreen, folding lawn chairs and frozen water, toted in a lil 
red wagon.
Also some snacks for the kiddys.
Next will be a ban on wagons, I suppose.

As to the last, agreed.  They are going to reach a point though - And in 
my opinion may have already reached the point, where increased price is 
going to turn more people away, and they
just might attract more people at a lower price and make more $$ over-all.
It used to be fairly common at many shows not many years back to just 
charge a flat rate per vehicle, $10-$20, which included parking.
That was reasonable. Many folks with say 2-5 kids [like me] just don't 
have $100 to blow on an afternoon of watching aircraft, and they do like 
I now usually do - Find a nice spot outside of show.
And no matter what, I am not going to think of charging $3-$5 for a 
bottle of water as anything other than it is - Price gouging.
If someone did that during a natural emergency, they just might get 
arrested.
Why make excuses for it at an airshow, when they have practically 
eliminated ones ability to take in ones own necessary cold refreshments ?
I am beginning to think that these cooler restrictions have as much, if 
not more, to do with concessions than they do with security.


The show was pretty good, by the way.
15 B-25's in the air at once, certainly more than I have ever seen.
Alot of dead spots though, as much as half an hour with nothing flying.