[Lowfer] #18 wire
riese-k3djc at juno.com
riese-k3djc at juno.com
Thu Dec 8 20:48:58 EST 2011
will
be interesting to see how that works,, from fiddling about on 40 meter
I believe that several ummmm radials up off the ground really work better
than a big ground field
some say tuning helps but I dont know,,, not sure if that would provide a
better path for return currents or not
my local hospital has pretty much QRMd the whole lower HF spectrum
using an ANC4 on 75 helps but doesnt eliminate the problem
what to do
what to do ?
below 400 K pretty bad but interesting there is a noise hole at 500 K
be a fun band if we ever got it
Bob K3DJC
On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 17:14:09 -0500 Bill Ashlock <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
writes:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm using a std LRC meter to measure the capacity. I'm quite a
> distance from the nearest AM radio station and have never
> experienced an interference problem from any RF source. Can't
> remember the make of my LRC meter but I'll post this tomorrow
> night.
>
> Yes this is a counterpoise, 8' above ground, return system, but the
> wires are not radial like spokes in a wheel, as most of them are. My
> type is a "Y"made out of three 34ft, #12 wires joined at their ends
> and supported by three ropes connecting to three trees off to the
> side. Between the legs of the "Y" are three parallel #18 wires
> spaced at appox 3ft so it looks like a triangular spider web looking
> down from the top.
>
> BTW, I've never experienced any benefit in tuning the counterpoise
> but as one reaches a length of something like a 1/4WL there could be
> an advantage to this.
>
> Bill
>
> > To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 21:21:32 -0500
> > From: riese-k3djc at juno.com
> > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Bill
> >
> > what are you using to measure the cap
> > if I read you correct you are going to a
> > counterpose system as opposed to a set of ground
> > radials,,, I just built an HF ground plane for 40 on up and
> > used 12 or so radials er counterpose and the antenna
> > really works well,, the wires arent tuned to a length but still
> > provide good return for RF,, mounted at about 15 ft. at night
> really
> > comes alive
> >
> > Bob K3DJC
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2011 20:07:30 -0500 Bill Ashlock
> <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > writes:
> > >
> > > Here's an update Rick:
> > >
> > > I completed the lower "Y" this morning on my new vertical
> antenna.
> > > (IE: that illegal counterpoise :) BTW, at least on may first
> design,
> > > there would be no hope of getting out a signal worth a nickel if
> I
> > > didn't use a counterpoise electrically isolated from the earth...
> no
> > > matter how many ground rods I pounded into the ground. The
> lowest
> > > Rac I could get in this design using typical grounding
> techniques
> > > was something like 500 ohms!!! Once I complete the antenna I
> will
> > > run some more tests to determine the
> > > ground conductivity and the Rac without the counterpoise.
> Removing
> > > all
> > > the trees from this area has caused the ground to be fairly wet
> so
> > > this
> > > may have a positive effect on the ground conductivity.
> > >
> > > The capacity tests today gave the following readings:
> > >
> > > 1. Capacity between upper and lower "Ys" separated 50ft = 150pf
> > >
> > > 2. Capacity between upper "Y" and a pipe driven into the ground
> =
> > > 320pf
> > >
> > > The really good news is that I discovered that my nearest Home
> Depot
> > > actually does have the #18 chandelier wire in 500ft spools so I
> will
> > > install the fill-in wires and re-measure the capacities ASAP.
> Guess
> > > I'd better get a transmitter, exciter, and lead-in wires ready
> to go
> > > as well.
> > >
> > > Later...
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > > From: ashlockw at hotmail.com
> > > > To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:10:23 -0500
> > > > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rick,
> > > >
> > > > I have my upper and lower "Ys" in place and tomorrow I hope to
>
> > > make my first capacity measurement. Then I will need that #18
> wire
> > > in order to continue the effort.
> > > >
> > > > I'll have to check in my archives in order to reactivate my
> memory
> > > of what we talked about relative to a ground screen below a
> loop. My
> > > current sense of this is that they have no effect if only as
> large a
> > > the base of the loop. They don't appear to lower the Rac, at
> least
> > > with my two types of soil.
> > > >
> > > > Your 1.38 ohms seem to be higher than it should be. I forgot
> to
> > > ask if you checked the accuracy of your current probe to see if
>
> > > something there may have changed.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > > From: smokinggun at verizon.net
> > > > > To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 04:23:05 +0000
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > > Well it was nice of the logging company to hook you up like
>
> > > that. I cant
> > > > > wait to hear it. Sounds like lots of wire !
> > > > > I have the same mountain conditions here in the Poconos;
> all
> > > rock and clay.
> > > > > I wonder if you still planned on testing a loop with a
> ground
> > > screen like
> > > > > we were discussing a while ago ?
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as my loop goes; the Rac went up from 1.18 on Friday
> to
> > > 1.38
> > > > > Saturday ; the day after I elevated the lower leg and
> trimmed
> > > the trees. I
> > > > > dont expect anything went bad in the TX in that time.It
> would
> > > be quite a
> > > > > coincidence. It wasnt a drastic change but I just expected
> it to
> > > go down not
> > > > > up.O h well, maybe my measurements were off before I trimmed
> but
> > > I rechecked
> > > > > the loop current a few times after trimming and again 2 days
> ago
> > > and all the
> > > > > readings are the same.
> > > > > Good luck with the new antenna raising !
> > > > >
> > > > > Rick "PBO"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > > > > To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 2:01 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Rick,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yah, a bit of a shift in loyalty from TX loops to a
> vertical
> > > (although not
> > > > > > quite a traditional form of a vertical). The open area
> just
> > > cleared out by
> > > > > > loggers crys out for a vertical and should give a good A/B
>
> > > comparison of
> > > > > > the performance of these two antennas. They left a huge
> birch
> > > tree in the
> > > > > > center of this area and it is about 120ft from the closest
>
> > > tree on my
> > > > > > property. The plan is to run one rope support end of the
> "Y"
> > > over the top
> > > > > > of this tree and run the other two rope supports to the
> tops
> > > of two trees
> > > > > > on my land forming a 120 deg angle between each rope. The
> Y
> > > itself will
> > > > > > be composed of #12 stranded house wire. A counterpoise
> with a
> > >
> > > > > > geometrically matching "Y" will be 50ft below this. I will
> be
> > > filling in
> > > > > > the "Ys" with smaller gauge wire in order to increase the
>
> > > capacity between
> > > > > > them as much as possible consistent with low cost and low
>
> > > weight. The apex
> > > > > > of the "Ys" of course will be connected to the vertical
> > > element and the
> > > > > > loading coil will be hanging in the approx ce
> > > > > > nter of this. The whole antenna will be floating relative
> to
> > > ground
> > > > > > because of the very poor ground conductivity up here. This
>
> > > pretty much
> > > > > > described my first vertical on site (5 years ago) except
> it
> > > was an "X"
> > > > > > antenna instead of a "Y" and was located in the center of
> my
> > > 200ft wide
> > > > > > lot. The performance of this antenna was quite good (Rac
> in
> > > the order of
> > > > > > 10 ohms) but I had to remove it soon after its
> installation to
> > > make room
> > > > > > for my house. So far I have installed the ropes over the
> tops
> > > of two trees
> > > > > > and should be able to complete the third tomorrow. (BTW
> I'm
> > > still doing
> > > > > > pretty good with the compound bow - now batting 1000 :)
> > > Luckily the
> > > > > > weather has been good for this project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About your loop: What you did shouldn't have raised the
> Rac.
> > > Must be
> > > > > > something very subtle. Are the two lower legs touching
> > > anything other than
> > > > > > insulators? That's the most sensitive area. Recheck the
> Xmter
> > > on the bench
> > > > > > and also check the resonating caps if nothing else looks
> out
> > > of place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> From: smokinggun at verizon.net
> > > > > >> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > > >> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 04:38:17 +0000
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wow Bill; I want to see what that looks like and how it
> > > performs ! Its a
> > > > > >> horizontal "Y" ? I guess your feeding it where the 3 legs
> of
> > > the "Y"
> > > > > >> meet?
> > > > > >> Do tell!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> BTW : My loop is doing ok.I trimmed some trees and moved
> the
> > > feed point
> > > > > >> from the corner to the center of the loop( shouldnt
> change
> > > performance)
> > > > > >> .That night I was copied by Andy and Doug down in TN ;
> almost
> > > 500 miles!
> > > > > >> Not
> > > > > >> bad for a new guy ! For some reason though by trimming
> the
> > > trees away and
> > > > > >> raising the lower leg from 4 ft up to 8 ft and moving
> the
> > > feedpoint ; my
> > > > > >> Rac went up ?I was expecting the opposite but what do I
> > > know.
> > > > > >> Keep us informed on your "Y " experiment .Im real
> curious.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 73
> > > > > >> Rick KA2PBO
> > > > > >> "PBO" 187.2Khz "or so" qrss60
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >> From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > > > > >> To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > > >> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:02 AM
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Thanks Warren. I'll have to stop in on my next trip
> south
> > > and/or give
> > > > > >> > them
> > > > > >> > a call. This is for the antenna design that uses a tall
>
> > > tree 120ft off
> > > > > >> > to
> > > > > >> > the side of my land. This was originally planned to be
> an
> > > "H" antenna
> > > > > >> > (rotated 90deg) but I found the capacity between top
> and
> > > bottom
> > > > > >> > sections
> > > > > >> > to be only about 100pf and not much more with caged
> > > conductors. A "Y"
> > > > > >> > design (looking down from the top) on the other hand
> has a
> > > capacity of
> > > > > >> > almost 400pf if the "Y" is filled-in with a spider web
> of
> > > smaller ga
> > > > > >> > wire.
> > > > > >> > I can use two trees on my land to form the "Y". (This
> is a
> > > Lowfer
> > > > > >> > antenna,
> > > > > >> > BTW, fitting inside a 50' x 50' cylinder)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Bill
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >> From: k2ors at verizon.net
> > > > > >> >> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
> > > > > >> >> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:30:33 -0500
> > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> Bill,
> > > > > >> >> Electronic Surplus Sales in Candia, NH has wire on
>
> > > spools at scrap
> > > > > >> >> prices. Selection varies from day to day, so it might
> pay
> > > to check
> > > > > >> >> with
> > > > > >> >> them
> > > > > >> >> first.
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> 73 Warren
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >> >> From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
> > > > > >> >> To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
> > > > > >> >> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 10:06 PM
> > > > > >> >> Subject: [Lowfer] #18 wire
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > Does anyone know of a cheep source for #18 bare
> stranded
> > > wire? Need
> > > > > >> >> > about
> > > > > >> >> > 500ft for a new Lowfer antenna design.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > Used to buy so-called 'chandelier wire' at $12 for a
>
> > > 500ft spool at
> > > > > >> >> > Home
> > > > > >> >> > Depot but now I'm seeing astronomical prices.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > Bill
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > ______________________________________________________________
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