[Lowfer] #18 wire

rick kirby smokinggun at verizon.net
Thu Dec 8 07:22:03 EST 2011 

 Hi Bill,

 Wow! 500ohms.....I now see the reason for all your experimenting. Your are 
"clay" is even less conductive than mine HI! I know it sounds mean; but if 
you werent as "earth" challenged as you are your loop system  would never 
have been born. The "Y" has really tweaked my curiosity. Good news on the 
Home Depot find. That will put lots of copper in the air but you should be 
able to work with the capacitance when its all up.
 The challenge; im guessing, will be tuning the inductor since it will be 
elevated . Im assuming you will put the big fixed  coil  up in the air and 
use a smaller loading coil at the base to fine tune.
 I missed the "illegalc counterpoise " discussion but Im guessing someone 
gave you some flack about it; just as they try to do with the "illegal 
loop". I guess they still dont understand the "spirit" of Lowfer 
experimentation.

 Good luck !

                  Rick









----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire


>
> Here's an update Rick:
>
> I completed the lower "Y" this morning on my new vertical antenna. (IE: 
> that illegal counterpoise :) BTW, at least on may first design, there 
> would be no hope of getting out a signal worth a nickel if I didn't use a 
> counterpoise electrically isolated from the earth... no matter how many 
> ground rods I pounded into the ground. The lowest Rac I could get in this 
> design using typical grounding techniques was something like 500 ohms!!! 
> Once I complete the antenna I will run some more tests to determine the
> ground conductivity and the Rac without the counterpoise. Removing all
> the trees from this area has caused the ground to be fairly wet so this
> may have a positive effect on the ground conductivity.
>
> The capacity tests today gave the following readings:
>
> 1. Capacity between upper and lower "Ys" separated 50ft = 150pf
>
> 2. Capacity between upper "Y" and a pipe driven into the ground = 320pf
>
> The really good news is that I discovered that my nearest Home Depot 
> actually does have the #18 chandelier wire in 500ft spools so I will 
> install the fill-in wires and re-measure the capacities ASAP. Guess I'd 
> better get a transmitter, exciter, and lead-in wires ready to go as well.
>
> Later...
>
> Bill
>
>> From: ashlockw at hotmail.com
>> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
>> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:10:23 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>>
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> I have my upper and lower "Ys" in place and tomorrow I hope to make my 
>> first capacity measurement. Then I will need that #18 wire in order to 
>> continue the effort.
>>
>> I'll have to check in my archives in order to reactivate my memory of 
>> what we talked about relative to a ground screen below a loop. My current 
>> sense of this is that they have no effect if only as large a the base of 
>> the loop. They don't appear to lower the Rac, at least with my two types 
>> of soil.
>>
>> Your 1.38 ohms seem to be higher than it should be. I forgot to ask if 
>> you checked the accuracy of your current probe to see if something there 
>> may have changed.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> > From: smokinggun at verizon.net
>> > To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
>> > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 04:23:05 +0000
>> > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Bill,
>> >  Well it was nice of the logging company to hook you up like that. I 
>> > cant
>> > wait to hear it. Sounds like lots of wire !
>> >  I have the same mountain conditions here in the Poconos; all rock and 
>> > clay.
>> >  I wonder if you still planned on testing a loop with a ground screen 
>> > like
>> > we were discussing a while ago ?
>> >
>> >  As far as my loop goes; the Rac went up from 1.18 on Friday to 1.38
>> > Saturday ; the day after I elevated the lower leg and trimmed the 
>> > trees. I
>> > dont expect anything went bad in the TX in that time.It would  be quite 
>> > a
>> > coincidence. It wasnt a drastic change but I just expected it to go 
>> > down not
>> > up.O h well, maybe my measurements were off before I trimmed but I 
>> > rechecked
>> > the loop current a few times after trimming and again 2 days ago and 
>> > all the
>> > readings are the same.
>> >  Good luck with the new antenna raising !
>> >
>> >          Rick   "PBO"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
>> > To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 2:01 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Hi Rick,
>> > >
>> > > Yah, a bit of a shift in loyalty from TX loops to a vertical 
>> > > (although not
>> > > quite a traditional form of a vertical). The open area just cleared 
>> > > out by
>> > > loggers crys out for a vertical and should give a good A/B comparison 
>> > > of
>> > > the performance of these two antennas. They left a huge birch tree in 
>> > > the
>> > > center of this area and it is about 120ft from the closest tree on my
>> > > property. The plan is to run one rope support end of the "Y" over the 
>> > > top
>> > > of this tree and run the other two rope supports to the tops of two 
>> > > trees
>> > > on my land forming a 120 deg angle  between each rope. The Y itself 
>> > > will
>> > > be composed of #12 stranded house wire. A counterpoise with a
>> > > geometrically matching "Y" will be 50ft below this. I will be filling 
>> > > in
>> > > the "Ys" with smaller gauge wire in order to increase the capacity 
>> > > between
>> > > them as much as possible consistent with low cost and low weight. The 
>> > > apex
>> > > of the "Ys" of course will be connected to the vertical element and 
>> > > the
>> > > loading coil will be hanging in the approx ce
>> > > nter of this. The whole antenna will be floating relative to ground
>> > > because of the very poor ground conductivity up here. This pretty 
>> > > much
>> > > described my first vertical on site (5 years ago) except it was an 
>> > > "X"
>> > > antenna instead of a "Y" and was located in the center of my 200ft 
>> > > wide
>> > > lot. The performance of this antenna was quite good (Rac in the order 
>> > > of
>> > > 10 ohms) but I had to remove it soon after its installation to make 
>> > > room
>> > > for my house. So far I have installed the ropes over the tops of two 
>> > > trees
>> > > and should be able to complete the third tomorrow. (BTW I'm still 
>> > > doing
>> > > pretty good with the compound bow - now batting 1000 :)  Luckily the
>> > > weather has been good for this project.
>> > >
>> > > About your loop: What you did shouldn't have raised the Rac. Must be
>> > > something very subtle. Are the two lower legs touching anything other 
>> > > than
>> > > insulators? That's the most sensitive area. Recheck the Xmter on the 
>> > > bench
>> > > and also check the resonating caps if nothing else looks out of 
>> > > place.
>> > >
>> > > Bill
>> > >
>> > >> From: smokinggun at verizon.net
>> > >> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
>> > >> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 04:38:17 +0000
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>> > >>
>> > >> Wow Bill; I want to see what that looks like and how it performs ! 
>> > >> Its a
>> > >> horizontal "Y" ? I guess your feeding it where the 3 legs of the "Y"
>> > >> meet?
>> > >> Do tell!
>> > >>
>> > >>  BTW : My loop is doing ok.I trimmed some trees and moved the feed 
>> > >> point
>> > >> from the corner to the center of the loop( shouldnt change 
>> > >> performance)
>> > >> .That night I was copied by Andy and Doug down in TN ; almost 500 
>> > >> miles!
>> > >> Not
>> > >> bad for a new guy ! For some reason though by trimming the trees 
>> > >> away and
>> > >> raising the lower leg from 4 ft up to 8 ft  and moving the feedpoint 
>> > >> ; my
>> > >> Rac went up ?I was expecting the opposite but what do I know.
>> > >>  Keep us informed on your "Y " experiment .Im real curious.
>> > >>
>> > >>    73
>> > >>        Rick  KA2PBO
>> > >>         "PBO"  187.2Khz  "or so"     qrss60
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > >> From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
>> > >> To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
>> > >> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:02 AM
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Thanks Warren. I'll have to stop in on my next trip south and/or 
>> > >> > give
>> > >> > them
>> > >> > a call. This is for the antenna design that uses a tall tree 120ft 
>> > >> > off
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > the side of my land. This was originally planned to be an "H" 
>> > >> > antenna
>> > >> > (rotated 90deg) but I found the capacity between top and bottom
>> > >> > sections
>> > >> > to be only about 100pf and not much more with caged conductors. A 
>> > >> > "Y"
>> > >> > design (looking down from the top) on the other hand has a 
>> > >> > capacity of
>> > >> > almost 400pf if the "Y" is filled-in with a spider web of smaller 
>> > >> > ga
>> > >> > wire.
>> > >> > I can use two trees on my land to form the "Y". (This is a Lowfer
>> > >> > antenna,
>> > >> > BTW, fitting inside a 50' x 50' cylinder)
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bill
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> From: k2ors at verizon.net
>> > >> >> To: lowfer at mailman.qth.net
>> > >> >> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:30:33 -0500
>> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Bill,
>> > >> >>    Electronic Surplus Sales in Candia, NH has wire on spools at 
>> > >> >> scrap
>> > >> >> prices. Selection varies from day to day, so it might pay to 
>> > >> >> check
>> > >> >> with
>> > >> >> them
>> > >> >> first.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> 73 Warren
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > >> >> From: "Bill Ashlock" <ashlockw at hotmail.com>
>> > >> >> To: <lowfer at mailman.qth.net>
>> > >> >> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 10:06 PM
>> > >> >> Subject: [Lowfer] #18 wire
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Does anyone know of a cheep source for #18 bare stranded wire? 
>> > >> >> > Need
>> > >> >> > about
>> > >> >> > 500ft for a new Lowfer antenna design.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Used to buy so-called 'chandelier wire' at $12 for a 500ft 
>> > >> >> > spool at
>> > >> >> > Home
>> > >> >> > Depot but now I'm seeing astronomical prices.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Bill
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > ______________________________________________________________
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>> > >> > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4652 - Release Date:
>> > >> > 12/02/11
>> > >> >
>> > >>
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>> >
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