Bill Martin - K4SGF
[email protected]
Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:55:50 -0500
As a rule I generally just delete the emails that have been following this
thread, but with this thread, perhaps a few comments before I fade into the
list of "unsubcribers".
First, refrain isn't a noun. It's a verb. But aside from that, what would
have been nice in the first place is if the original poster of the ad for
ebay would have offered first shot to the list subscribers at buying what he
was selling on ebay before he listed it. Might have saved him some fees and
it would have followed one of the purposes of these lists.
On the other hand, the rule is the rule, whether anyone likes it or not.
And we should be appreciative of the service that Al provides with qth.net,
etc. And I back up my appreciation with a couple contributions each year.
Having said that, however, I am getting tired of the constant lectures about
contributions and the ongoing littany of how cool Al is being letting us use
these lists. Any enterprise, commercial or volunteer, needs several
components to work, including those that subscribe and post information that
is useable and relevant to the masses. How about a pat on the back for
those folks.
So with that said, feel free to unsubscribe me from the list. Wait. I'll
do it myself later.
Bill WM4SG
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----- Original Message -----
From: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
To: paul ; Woody ; Jim Temple ; [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Heathkit] No ebay allowed on [email protected]
Paul is partially correct. While the list manager does have some leeway in
policy making, the ultimate rules are made and set forth by the owner,
namely,
Al Waller, K3TKJ. Here is a quote.
In the QTH.NET general rules it is stated to:
"Refrain from posting Ebay Auctions".
That should make the EBAY situation quite clear. The noun 'refrain' means to
hold oneself back. It is a polite way of saying "Do not do that." Some may
arbitrarily add the approach of voluntary compliance to the act of
refraining.
However, it is not a voluntary request, it is an order to 'hold oneself
back'.
Defying it does not mean one escapes without penalty. the alternative is a
'mandate'. Which is a transitive verb that means an authoritative command or
instruction to do, or not to do, some thing. In either case, it is not
voluntary. One is simply more polite than the other. More or less like
telling
somebody to "shut up" or to "please be silent". The same result, just a
different way of ordering the action.
Let me spell it out simply. Al Waller, K3TKJ owns these lists. All of us are
his
guests. We do not pay a membership fee, we do not have any voteing rights,
we do
not make policy decisions and if we misbehave he has the right to kick us
off
the list. After all, we are his guests and this is his domain.
How many of you donate to qth.net/qsl.net annually to help keep it
operating?
Yes, it is Al Waller's hobby, so spare me that shapeless arguement of no
substance. You use his lists to gain information, most of which you can not
get
elsewhere easily, if at all. You use his lists to sell your personal radio
related items. You pay nothing for this service. You use his lists to find
radio
related items you need to repair or refurbish a piece of radio equipment.
The
list of services goes on and on. What does it cost you? Nothing. There is no
membership fee, donations are strictly voluntary. So how many of you show
your
appreciation for what Al Waller does for you?
Less than one tenth of one percent of you! Al Waller receives from $3,000 to
$6,000 in donations annually. this is from about 100,000 subscribers to over
550
lists. Yet the operational cost of qth.net/qsl.net is over $40,000 per year.
Al
Waller has to find ways to fund the operation or shut it down.
Now he could easily turn it into a commercial venture, such as EBAY, and
make a
million dollars each year with ease. But this is his hobby and he is not
interested in making it into a commercial venture. While Yahoo, EBAY and
hosts
of others sell the names of their subscribers to mail lists, qth.net does
not
and never will. Al Waller goes to great lengths to protect subscribers, more
so
than perhaps anyone else anywhere. The services he provides to the radio
hobby
are beyond equal by anyone anywhere.
When you defy his rules, such as stated above, you are abusing your right to
enjoy his lists and misusing the privileges they offer you. If you show that
little respect for what he has done, why should he tolerate your presence?
Remember, you are a guest here, this is not your divine right.
When you ignore the request not to post EBAY related material on these
lists,
and advertise what you are selling on EBAY here, you violate the policy of
the
qth.net lists it is that simple. Al Waller makes the rules and they apply to
all
of us. If you will not respect those rules, then you do not belong here.
EBAY charges you for each ad, they give you nothing for free. They are a for
profit commercial business. When an item sells they charge you a percentage
of
the selling price. You profit. EBAY profits. What does Al Waller receive?
From
99.8% of you, absolutely nothing!
Al Waller created these list originally for Hams to sell their used personal
items to other Hams, to exchange information and to get answers to radio
related
issues. He has kept the commercial venders out of here for that very reason.
This is a hobby, not a commercial venture. We need to respect his rules and
demonstrate our appreciation for the tremendous gift he has so generously
given
all of us to use and enjoy. Ask yourself where you would be without the
qth.net
lists. If your answer is 'better off', then unsubscribe and go elsewhere.
Nobody
is forcing you to remain here. But if you believe you do benefit from the
qth.net lists, then respect the rules and send the man a donation each year
to
help keep them operating.
I do not careif you agree or disagree with the list policy. It changes
nothing.
It is the policy and we all need to abide by it. Be grateful for what Al
Waller,
K3TKJ has done for the radio hobby. Help the hobby by helping him. There is
no
such thing as a 'free' lunch, as even those come with indigestion.
If you want to complain, write me off list.
Thank you for your indulgence and cooperation.
Duane Fischer, W8DBF
List Admin
----------
From: paul <[email protected]>
To: Woody <[email protected]>; Jim Temple <[email protected]>;
[email protected]
Subject: Re: [Heathkit] No ebay allowed on [email protected]
Date: Thursday, February 13, 2003 12:11 AM
hi guys.. here is a fact of life each list is owned and maintained by its
moderator.. just like your home , rules for entrance vary from house to
house.. i do not support or attack duane... its just this simple.. its
his house.. his rules and if we dont like them, we simply " go away" end of
story
paul from ohio w8jn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Woody" <[email protected]>
To: "Jim Temple" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Heathkit] No ebay allowed on [email protected]
> Hi Jim:
>
> Not allowing eBay to be mentioned on this reflector IS discriminatory, and
> seems especially short sighted, since this is explicitly permitted by Al
> Waller, who owns QSL.NET, the sponsor of this reflector, and many other
> great reflectors dedicated to Amateur Radio.
>
> 73,
>
> Woody
> KJ4SO
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Temple" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Heathkit] No ebay allowed on [email protected]
>
>
> > Yikes! This is new to me also. A policy that disallows eBay for sale
> > notices needs to be reinforced and clearly stated.
> >
> > I guess if a person has difficulty unsubscribing, a simple way to get
the
> > job done would be to mention eBay! Thanks for the tip.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jim
> > 73, KF4ICZ
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>;
> > <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 10:57 PM
> > Subject: [Heathkit] No ebay allowed on [email protected]
> >
> >
> > > Hi Duane W8DBF,
> > > Sorry for the messup--did not know Ebay not allowed on your
> > Heathkit.qth.net
> > > I disagree, though, I think any info regarding Heathkit is worthwhile
> for
> > a
> > > Heathkit email list.
> > > I am lucky I got your email. I have been deleting email (without
> opening)
> > > from you since I got that weird email from you saying someone was
using
> > your
> > > email address without your permission.
> > > Are you getting it confused with another email list? Below is what I
see
> > on
> > > the signup page?
> > >
> > > HeathKit is a mailing list reflector devoted to the discussion of
> > equipment
> > > manufactured by HeathKit.
> > >
> > > * Collectors
> > > * Enhancements, Modifications
> > > * Buy, Sell
> > > * Repairs, Parts, Manuals
> > > * Anything Else HeathKit Related
> > >
> > > I suggest,if I may, that you add that Ebay is not allowed--although
that
> > > seems a bit discrimatory.
> > > I am glad to know that I can simply mention an Ebay ad to
un-subscribe.
> > > By the way, anyone interested in a SB-200 manual please check Ebay in
> the
> > > next few days and I will eventually be listing my unassembled HW-9 and
> > some
> > > of its accessories--unassembled--not doing Ebay for a business just
> > cleaning
> > > up the shack.
> > >
> > > Well,goodbye everyone--I am being terminated by Mr. Online policeman.
> > >
> > > Phil C KB5ZAV
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > > multipart/alternative
> > > text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > > text/html
> > > The reason this message is shown is because the post was in HTML
> > > or had an attachment. Attachments are not allowed. To learn how
> > > to post in Plain-Text go to: http://www.expita.com/nomime.html ---
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > > ** For Assistance: [email protected] **
> > > $$ See the vintage area on the HCI web site - http://www.w9wze.org $$
> > > Heathkit mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/heathkit
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> > ** For Assistance: [email protected] **
> > $$ See the vintage area on the HCI web site - http://www.w9wze.org $$
> > Heathkit mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/heathkit
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: [email protected] **
> $$ See the vintage area on the HCI web site - http://www.w9wze.org $$
> Heathkit mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/heathkit
_______________________________________________
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: [email protected] **
$$ See the vintage area on the HCI web site - http://www.w9wze.org $$
Heathkit mailing list
[email protected]
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/heathkit
_______________________________________________
List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
** For Assistance: [email protected] **
$$ See the vintage area on the HCI web site - http://www.w9wze.org $$
Heathkit mailing list
[email protected]
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/heathkit