From glwells at yahoo.com  Sun May 22 19:20:48 2011
From: glwells at yahoo.com (Gary Wells)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HBR] 1
Message-ID: <213903.22372.qm@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

My God! I?ve never been so delighted! It really works!.. http://www.cumbredelvino.com/friends_links.php?kagPage=91le6

From daileyservices at qwest.net  Sun May 22 19:25:23 2011
From: daileyservices at qwest.net (TC Dailey)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 17:25:23 -0600
Subject: [HBR] 1
References: <213903.22372.qm@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <272ACCB0F03A44808BC2CB72B46D5F2E@w0eaj>

Well, your website doesn't.



> My God! I?ve never been so delighted! It really works!.. 
> http://www.cumbredelvino.com/friends_links.php?kagPage=91le6


From radioconnection at gmail.com  Sun May 22 22:40:12 2011
From: radioconnection at gmail.com (Peter Bertini)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:40:12 -0400
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
Message-ID: <BANLkTimGvnV9gS1+qoHP-PUUmgbPiMwcFA@mail.gmail.com>

Saw this posted on QRZ:  hbr at mailman.qth.net

These old Cleggs used an Eddystone dial.  The chassis and front panel might
be adaptable to a HBR design as well.
Hope someone can use it!  Not my ad BTW.

Pete k1zjh

From daileyservices at qwest.net  Sun May 22 23:18:24 2011
From: daileyservices at qwest.net (TC Dailey)
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 21:18:24 -0600
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
References: <BANLkTimGvnV9gS1+qoHP-PUUmgbPiMwcFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <092955297DF04D698CFC7105590C1EE9@w0eaj>

The radio you speak of was the Clegg Venus - it was a 6m SSB transciever (I 
had one).  Frankly, if it's a basket case, I can see the destruction, but 
otherwise, anybody who'd destroy a Venus for an HBR should be shot.  Use a 
National ACN - it's much more "retro".  That's what my HBR-11 has

Tom - W0EAJ 


From radioconnection at gmail.com  Mon May 23 00:02:31 2011
From: radioconnection at gmail.com (Peter Bertini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 00:02:31 -0400
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
In-Reply-To: <092955297DF04D698CFC7105590C1EE9@w0eaj>
References: <BANLkTimGvnV9gS1+qoHP-PUUmgbPiMwcFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<092955297DF04D698CFC7105590C1EE9@w0eaj>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=y6ZfVuG9gn8mD0=X4P3eK03A-5g@mail.gmail.com>

Well, unless I provided the wrong like the radio is a basket case *Clegg
Zeus* transmitter. Odd that the photos clearly show the model and you still
insist it is a restorable Venus. LOL. The Interceptor also used the same
dial mechanism. I'd rather see someone salvage that dial, rather the set be
dumpstered. It has been offered several times with no takers.
http://kd4e.com/clegg.html


On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:18 PM, TC Dailey <daileyservices at qwest.net>wrote:

> The radio you speak of was the Clegg Venus - it was a 6m SSB transciever (I
> had one).  Frankly, if it's a basket case, I can see the destruction, but
> otherwise, anybody who'd destroy a Venus for an HBR should be shot.  Use a
> National ACN - it's much more "retro".  That's what my HBR-11 has
>
> Tom - W0EAJ
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> HBR mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/hbr
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:HBR at mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

From wrcromwell at gmail.com  Mon May 23 08:25:29 2011
From: wrcromwell at gmail.com (Bill Cromwell)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 08:25:29 -0400
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=y6ZfVuG9gn8mD0=X4P3eK03A-5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTimGvnV9gS1+qoHP-PUUmgbPiMwcFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<092955297DF04D698CFC7105590C1EE9@w0eaj>
	<BANLkTi=y6ZfVuG9gn8mD0=X4P3eK03A-5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1306153529.1960.18.camel@lancelot>

Hi Pete,

I think your original post had an email address where the link was
supposed to be but this new post links to pictures of that Clegg unit.
That's an awful lot of rust and corrosion. I wonder if that dial
mechanism is in any better condition. A few of the other parts look like
they might be salvageable but mostly junk.  I'm thinking it would be a
gamble against some long odds. It appears to use an external power
supply so that would be a great help with shipping weight but still
doesn't look lightweight.

Thanks for the interesting link. I'm going to sleep on it and maybe
contact that guy about shipping weight.

73,

Bill  KU8H




From radioconnection at gmail.com  Mon May 23 09:55:38 2011
From: radioconnection at gmail.com (Peter Bertini)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:55:38 -0400
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
In-Reply-To: <1306153529.1960.18.camel@lancelot>
References: <BANLkTimGvnV9gS1+qoHP-PUUmgbPiMwcFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<092955297DF04D698CFC7105590C1EE9@w0eaj>
	<BANLkTi=y6ZfVuG9gn8mD0=X4P3eK03A-5g@mail.gmail.com>
	<1306153529.1960.18.camel@lancelot>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=0a-T5NvRaguetXpKrP=UCownXBw@mail.gmail.com>

Bill, the Zeus was an AM rig, and used an external modulator and power
supply.
I'd suspect the transmitter itself is fairly light.  You could always ask
for more
photos of the dial, and about its condition.

The Venus was 6 meter SSB, and they command serious money. If it were
a Venus I'd buy for restoration--even in that condition.

Pete

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Pete,
>
> I think your original post had an email address where the link was
> supposed to be but this new post links to pictures of that Clegg unit.
> That's an awful lot of rust and corrosion. I wonder if that dial
> mechanism is in any better condition. A few of the other parts look like
> they might be salvageable but mostly junk.  I'm thinking it would be a
> gamble against some long odds. It appears to use an external power
> supply so that would be a great help with shipping weight but still
> doesn't look lightweight.
>
> Thanks for the interesting link. I'm going to sleep on it and maybe
> contact that guy about shipping weight.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill  KU8H
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> HBR mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/hbr
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:HBR at mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

From LeeCraner at aol.com  Mon May 23 16:48:14 2011
From: LeeCraner at aol.com (LeeCraner at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 16:48:14 EDT
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
Message-ID: <3a2d5.1452d67d.3b0c220e@aol.com>

A couple years ago I bought a junker Clegg Venus to use as a basis for  an 
HBR-11.  So, yes, I would absolutely agree with you.  As  it turns out, once 
I got into the Clegg I found that it wasn't near a  junker as I thought, 
cleaned it up and got it working just as new.  So  I never did go through with 
my initial thoughts.
 
73
Lee WB6SSW  

From LeeCraner at aol.com  Mon May 23 16:53:41 2011
From: LeeCraner at aol.com (LeeCraner at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 16:53:41 EDT
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial!
Message-ID: <3a733.6579c2c7.3b0c2355@aol.com>

 
Correction to my earlier post (below), what I picked up was an Intercepter, 
 not a Venus (I had Venus on the brain reading the previous responses, I 
guess,  hi)
 
Lee WB6SSW
 
In a message dated 5/23/2011 1:49:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
LeeCraner at aol.com writes:

A couple  years ago I bought a junker Clegg Venus to use as a basis for  an 
 
HBR-11.  So, yes, I would absolutely agree with you.  As   it turns out, 
once 
I got into the Clegg I found that it wasn't near  a  junker as I thought, 
cleaned it up and got it working just as  new.  So  I never did go through 
with 
my initial  thoughts.





From daileyservices at qwest.net  Mon May 23 17:00:18 2011
From: daileyservices at qwest.net (TC Dailey)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 15:00:18 -0600
Subject: [HBR] Eddystone dial & BBOD's
References: <3a2d5.1452d67d.3b0c220e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <65B2442283B04917A9CD1D2BE8B9D62E@w0eaj>

I remember when I first got my Venus (I was working at Burstein-Applebee in 
KC, at the time), at first I was disappointed that it only went to 50.4 
(50.5, actually), but when you think about 6m in the 1960's and 1970's 
(like NOW), everything was clustered around 50.110 - 50.125, these days, so 
it didn't make any difference.  The Eddystone dials on the Zeus and Venus 
are essentially the same, but somehow, it just looks better on the Venus - 
heck, my old 1964 HBR-11 still has the National ACN dial - something kinda' 
cool about it, that I love.

Tom

Q.  On BBOD's (Black Beauties of Death) - does one read the color bands like 
normal?  i.e. org, org, red - 3300 pf? 


From glwells at yahoo.com  Mon May 23 18:24:56 2011
From: glwells at yahoo.com (Gary Wells)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 15:24:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HBR] 3
Message-ID: <101565.5251.qm@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Satisfy yourself with this stuff!. http://moldovawines.it/friends_links.php?anCID=89m0

From bignick at execpc.com  Tue May 24 07:13:56 2011
From: bignick at execpc.com (bignick at execpc.com)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 07:13:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HBR] Virus alert!  Gary Wells posting!
Message-ID: <63949.67.53.185.165.1306235636.squirrel@newmail.core.com>



HBR'ers,

Opening the most recent post by "Gary Wells"
triggered a Virus Alert on my computer.

(My AVG Antivirus
blocked it ..)

--KC9KEP

From wrcromwell at gmail.com  Tue May 24 08:38:02 2011
From: wrcromwell at gmail.com (Bill Cromwell)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 08:38:02 -0400
Subject: [HBR] Virus alert! Gary Wells posting! - not a virus...just
 ordinary spam
In-Reply-To: <63949.67.53.185.165.1306235636.squirrel@newmail.core.com>
References: <63949.67.53.185.165.1306235636.squirrel@newmail.core.com>
Message-ID: <1306240682.1956.5.camel@lancelot>

Hi,

It's not a virus. It's spam. An ad for Viagra. There is a tremendous
difference between spam and a virus. Apparently your AVG is also a spam
blocker. I saw the address for that link AND the subject line and
ignored it. I opened it after I read your email (I run Linux and Windows
viruses are irrelevant). Didn't the address and the subject give you a
clue?

73,

Bill  KU8H




From glwells at yahoo.com  Tue May 24 10:11:51 2011
From: glwells at yahoo.com (Gary Wells)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 07:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HBR] Email was hacked
Message-ID: <230121.61388.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Sorry guys, I discovered that my email got hacked and was being slaved thru my 
contacts list to send spam. No virus on my end from what I can tell, just that a 
lesson was learned about password strength. We'll see how the day plays out and 
hopefully we won't see any more posting from me other than HBR related!!

73's
Gary

From windy10605 at juno.com  Tue May 24 10:57:05 2011
From: windy10605 at juno.com (Kees & Sandy)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:57:05 GMT
Subject: [HBR] Virus alert! Gary Wells posting! - not a virus...just
	ordina	ry spam
Message-ID: <20110524.095705.5101.0@webmail21.dca.untd.com>

Yes, it's spam. I get a lot of requests to join the reflector and the software filters out most of it but every now and then one sneaks through. If someone can tell me where it originated I can take them off the reflector. Right now I'm receiving several requests from "facebook info...." to join the list and have rejected them all.
73 Kees K5BCQ (HBR Reflector owner)
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Bill Cromwell <wrcromwell at gmail.com>
To: HBR Receiver List <hbr at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [HBR] Virus alert! Gary Wells posting! - not a virus...just ordinary spam
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 08:38:02 -0400

Hi,

It's not a virus. It's spam. An ad for Viagra. There is a tremendous
difference between spam and a virus. Apparently your AVG is also a spam
blocker. I saw the address for that link AND the subject line and
ignored it. I opened it after I read your email (I run Linux and Windows
viruses are irrelevant). Didn't the address and the subject give you a
clue?

73,

Bill  KU8H



______________________________________________________________
HBR mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/hbr
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:HBR at mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


From jlandrigan at pol.net  Tue May 24 16:36:16 2011
From: jlandrigan at pol.net (John Landrigan)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:36:16 -0400
Subject: [HBR] options for the 2nd oscillator
Message-ID: <1604531733.1463941306269376265.JavaMail.root@zmcs02l-pol-08.portal.webmd.com>

It is beginning to appear that a 1650, 1685 or 1700 KHz crystal that can take the voltages present in vacuum tube oscillators is not going to be found. The simplest circuit in the HBR-16 is the 6C4 plus crystal equals the 2nd oscillator. Does anybody have any suggestions for a possible solid state replacement? Is there some type of PLL or digitally synthesized circuit that would have the equivalent stability of a crystal oscillator? Alternatively, is there a traditional Hartley, Pierce or Colpitts type oscillator without a crystal that would be stable enough to lock onto one of these frequencies?

John KA4RXP and Jody KG4VES



From ianmwilson73 at gmail.com  Tue May 24 16:57:25 2011
From: ianmwilson73 at gmail.com (Ian Wilson)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 13:57:25 -0700
Subject: [HBR] options for the 2nd oscillator
In-Reply-To: <1604531733.1463941306269376265.JavaMail.root@zmcs02l-pol-08.portal.webmd.com>
References: <1604531733.1463941306269376265.JavaMail.root@zmcs02l-pol-08.portal.webmd.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTindRaycyPiwnFnW9giuKpaJQ2P-nQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,

I have had no problem using modern crystals with tube oscillators at
typical receiver voltage levels (in fact, I have only had 1 failure with a
modern crystal in a 6AG7 transmitter oscillator, and that may not have
had anything to do with the voltage levels).

You can operate the tube oscillator on reduced plate/screen voltage if
you are really concerned with this.

You can also use a small pentode such as a 6AU6 in a Colpitts-type
(sorry, I mean grid-plate <g>) configuration. This gives you more control
over the amount of feedback and thus the drive that the crystal sees. The
pentode has a lot more effective voltage gain than the triode, so the
(AC) voltages on the grid side can be smaller.

73, ian K3IMW

From waltah at earthlink.net  Tue May 24 17:09:55 2011
From: waltah at earthlink.net (Walt Hutchens)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:09:55 -0400
Subject: [HBR] options for the 2nd oscillator
In-Reply-To: <1604531733.1463941306269376265.JavaMail.root@zmcs02l-pol-08.portal.webmd.com>
Message-ID: <CA0196A9.2CF6%waltah@earthlink.net>

John Landrigan said:

> It is beginning to appear that a 1650, 1685 or 1700 KHz crystal that can take
> the voltages present in vacuum tube oscillators is not going to be found.

Where are you looking?  This oscillator doesn't have to run any significant
power -- actually, it SHOULDN'T, since unnecessarily high power will lead to
drift and other problems.  Any HC 18 crystal should work just fine --
basically anything available in a leaded or plug in package of that size.
The smaller crystals may not be available at so low a frequency.

You probably need only a couple of volts p-p output so that's the ballpark
for the voltage across the crystal.

It probably will have to be a custom item and may cost $25 or so but there
are companies that do this work.

Another option is using a slightly different frequency that you CAN find and
adjusting the 1st IF accordingly.  This will in turn require a slight change
of the 1st oscillator frequencies but 50 kcs one way or the other won't be
enough to require changing the number of turns on the coil.

Tom wondered:
> Q.  On BBOD's (Black Beauties of Death) - does one read the color bands like
> normal?  i.e. org, org, red - 3300 pf?

That sounds right.   There may be two more bands with the voltage rating and
tolerance.  Any of the Handbooks should have the info.

Walt
KJ4KV


From hbrnut at suddenlink.net  Tue May 24 20:45:28 2011
From: hbrnut at suddenlink.net (WA5VGO)
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:45:28 -0500
Subject: [HBR] options for the 2nd oscillator
In-Reply-To: <CA0196A9.2CF6%waltah@earthlink.net>
References: <CA0196A9.2CF6%waltah@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4DDC5128.8000900@suddenlink.net>


> It is beginning to appear that a 1650, 1685 or 1700 KHz crystal that can take
>   the voltages present in vacuum tube oscillators is not going to be found.
Surplus Sales of Nebraska lists 1710 crystals in HC-6 cases for $7.00

Darrell, WA5VGO



From whitebear1122 at comcast.net  Wed May 25 23:29:55 2011
From: whitebear1122 at comcast.net (whitebear1122 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 03:29:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [HBR] HBR-17 On Youtube
In-Reply-To: <307988534.680841.1306380424410.JavaMail.root@sz0139a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <236981079.680983.1306380595362.JavaMail.root@sz0139a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>


Out of the blue I was recently given an HBR receiver that the OT called an HBR-17. He said it's Bill McKay's variation of the HBR-16 with the addition of a Q-Multiplier and some other improvements. He also built it with the rare Eddystone dial. In fact the receiver came with the Eddystone receipt as well. Gosh those Eddystone dials are just fabulous albeit kind of a mechanical pain in the butt to implement. 

He had been looking for just the right ham to give the HBR to, one who knew what it was and appreciated it. A mutual friend introduced us. When we met I was sort of grilled about radios and the talk turned to the homemade radios. Lucky for me I knew alot about the history of the HBR's and a little about TC. The OT must have been satisfied because he decided to give it to me. 

The OT's family had told him that his stuff would go into the trash when the time came so the OT wasn't taking any chances. 

It hasn't been used since 1973 and kind of looks like it too. It had been sitting on the floor next to his operating bench all that time. I didn't clean it all for the video so you're seeing it in all it's glory. The receiver is coiled up for 20m in the video. I must say the Eddystone is still smooth after all these unused years. It came with a complete set of coils from 10m through 80m. I will mention that the coil box was marked "Precious" and irreplaceable coils for the HBR receiver. 

The youtube video is located at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRSI99g1x8 

To power it after 38 years of being powered down, I brought it up over several minutes in a variac. I wasn't trying to reform the capacitors, but instead I wanted to avoid the sudden inrush currents that might occur from just plugging it in and turning it on. 

The receiver worked right off the bat and I found it to be completely stable, very sensitive, good audio although the AGC audio was a bit low in amplitude. I'm still learning how to use it. 

So as I now own a Bill McKay HBR-17, I can hardly wait to build my own receivers. I think I've finally nailed down the plan. I want to build an HBR-11 first and then an HBR-13. 

I'm still looking for a few of the unobtainium HBR parts. Looking for three Miller 1709 or 1710 ( I have one so far), 100 KC IF, and two 1730 1800 kc IF. 

73, Scott WA9WFA 



From windy10605 at juno.com  Thu May 26 09:33:38 2011
From: windy10605 at juno.com (Kees & Sandy)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 13:33:38 GMT
Subject: [HBR] HBR-17 On Youtube
Message-ID: <20110526.083338.9424.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

You have one heck of a find there and I'm glad it's in good hands.
73 Kees K5BCQ

---------- Original Message ----------
From: whitebear1122 at comcast.net
To: HBR Receiver List <hbr at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [HBR] HBR-17 On Youtube
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 03:29:55 +0000 (UTC)



Out of the blue I was recently given an HBR receiver that the OT called an HBR-17. He said it's Bill McKay's variation of the HBR-16 with the addition of a Q-Multiplier and some other improvements. He also built it with the rare Eddystone dial. In fact the receiver came with the Eddystone receipt as well. Gosh those Eddystone dials are just fabulous albeit kind of a mechanical pain in the butt to implement. 

He had been looking for just the right ham to give the HBR to, one who knew what it was and appreciated it. A mutual friend introduced us. When we met I was sort of grilled about radios and the talk turned to the homemade radios. Lucky for me I knew alot about the history of the HBR's and a little about TC. The OT must have been satisfied because he decided to give it to me. 

The OT's family had told him that his stuff would go into the trash when the time came so the OT wasn't taking any chances. 

It hasn't been used since 1973 and kind of looks like it too. It had been sitting on the floor next to his operating bench all that time. I didn't clean it all for the video so you're seeing it in all it's glory. The receiver is coiled up for 20m in the video. I must say the Eddystone is still smooth after all these unused years. It came with a complete set of coils from 10m through 80m. I will mention that the coil box was marked "Precious" and irreplaceable coils for the HBR receiver. 

The youtube video is located at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqRSI99g1x8 

To power it after 38 years of being powered down, I brought it up over several minutes in a variac. I wasn't trying to reform the capacitors, but instead I wanted to avoid the sudden inrush currents that might occur from just plugging it in and turning it on. 

The receiver worked right off the bat and I found it to be completely stable, very sensitive, good audio although the AGC audio was a bit low in amplitude. I'm still learning how to use it. 

So as I now own a Bill McKay HBR-17, I can hardly wait to build my own receivers. I think I've finally nailed down the plan. I want to build an HBR-11 first and then an HBR-13. 

I'm still looking for a few of the unobtainium HBR parts. Looking for three Miller 1709 or 1710 ( I have one so far), 100 KC IF, and two 1730 1800 kc IF. 

73, Scott WA9WFA 


______________________________________________________________
HBR mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:HBR at mailman.qth.net

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


From johnmb at nc.rr.com  Thu May 26 16:19:26 2011
From: johnmb at nc.rr.com (john)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 16:19:26 -0400
Subject: [HBR] HBR-17 On Youtube
In-Reply-To: <20110526.083338.9424.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
References: <20110526.083338.9424.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20110526161053.03bd1970@pop-server.nc.rr.com>

I sent a note to Scott, but I'd like to get some other input as well. I too 
have one of these (I think), and have not been able to locate any 
documentation. Was this "HBR Plus"  (The HBR-17) written up in QST, or...?

I'll have to get mine out ...it came with a "matching" transmitter . I 
recall that both used clear frame plastic Wester Electric meters, that I've 
never seen before. Picture the standard round bakelite meter from Simpson, 
or the like, with a clear plastic housing and you've got the idea.  An 
appropriation from work, or....? We'll never know since these were 
purchased from an Ebay estate seller who didn't know the history and didn't 
care.

Best
John K5MO/Ocracoke Island NC


