[Hallicrafters] Re: [Boatanchors] Replacing recttubeswithdiodesquestion

Wed Feb 13 15:18:53 EST 2008

Most RF amps apply all voltages at the same time no matter what type of 
filament.
The difference is that plate current cannot be drawn until the warm up delay 
circuit has operated.

Manufacturers specs on directly heated filaments as used in ham amps state 
that only a "few second" delay is required before drawing full plate 
current.

Military and civilian mobile and aircraft equipment ran off dynamotors and 
SS power supplies. Instant B+.

Its about time to put myths to rest once and for all; its really getting 
old.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Macklin" <macklinbob at msn.com>
To: <dhallam at rapidsys.com>; "Bill Kirkland" <kirklandb at sympatico.ca>; 
<km1h at jeremy.mv.com>; <wq9e at dtnspeed.net>; <erastber at tampabay.rr.com>
Cc: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>; <hallicrafters at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Hallicrafters] Re: [Boatanchors] Replacing 
recttubeswithdiodesquestion

> Transmitters have separate B+ controls from the main power controls. Good
> ones are interlocked so as not to allow B+ until after a warm-up cycle is
> complete.
>
> It's the classic BA receiver this discussion really applies to.
>
> Bob Macklin
> K5MYJ
> Seattle, Wa,
> "Real Radios Glow in the Dark"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David C. Hallam" <dhallam at rapidsys.com>
> To: "Bill Kirkland" <kirklandb at sympatico.ca>; <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>;
> <wq9e at dtnspeed.net>; <erastber at tampabay.rr.com>
> Cc: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>; <hallicrafters at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:36 AM
> Subject: RE: [Hallicrafters] Re: [Boatanchors] Replacing
> recttubeswithdiodesquestion
>
>
>> The situation of applying plate voltage to a tube at the same time as
>> filament voltage is applied belongs to the realm of transmitting tubes 
>> not
>> small receiving tubes.  If by chance some cathode stripping does occur it
> is
>> so slight as to be insignificant.  Given the hours of life vs. the price
> of
>> a small receiving tube, why worry about it even if it should occur?  If 
>> we
>> were talking about a multi thousand dollar indirectly heated transmitting
>> tube it might have some validity.  How many times a day will the radio be
>> turned off and on?
>>
>> This discussion is in the same vein as the theological one of "How many
>> angels can dance on the head of a pin?".
>>
>> David
>> KC2JD/4
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: hallicrafters-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> > [mailto:hallicrafters-bounces at mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Bill 
>> > Kirkland
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 1:48 PM
>> > To: km1h at jeremy.mv.com; wq9e at dtnspeed.net; erastber at tampabay.rr.com
>> > Cc: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net; hallicrafters at mailman.qth.net
>> > Subject: Re: [Hallicrafters] Re: [Boatanchors] Replacing rect
>> > tubeswithdiodesquestion
>> >
>> >
>> > forgot one other item. With solid state rectifiers you will be
>> > applying the
>> > B+ almost
>> > instantaneously to the tube plates, well before they have had a chance
> to
>> > heat up.
>> >
>> > I am not a tube expert but I can buy into arguments that this is not
> good
>> > for the
>> > tube.
>> >
>> > In essence if you just replace the tube with solid state
>> > rectifiers, you are
>> > not
>> > replacing the rectifier tube with an equivalent system.
>> > - rectifier tube has to heat up before it applies B+ to the rest of the
>> > tubes
>> >     start up surge will put more stress on the transformer and 
>> > filtering
>> > circuit
>> > - rectifier tube has a huge voltage drop compared to a silicon
>> > diode, e.g.
>> > 40V.
>> >    at 250V plate voltage, this is > a 15% increase in the
>> > operating point of
>> > the circuit.
>> >
>> >
>> > Will the system work, quite possibly/probably.
>> > Is it working within its intended  parameter range, probably not.
>> > Is it fatal - don't know, but I would expect it to shorten the
>> > life of the
>> > tube - which will get harder to find
>> >
>> > bill
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "jeremy-ca" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
>> > >To: "Rodger" <wq9e at dtnspeed.net>,WØQFC <erastber at tampabay.rr.com>
>> > >CC: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net,HALLICRAFTERS
>> > ><hallicrafters at mailman.qth.net>
>> > >Subject: Re: [Hallicrafters] Re: [Boatanchors] Replacing rect tubes
>> > >withdiodesquestion
>> > >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:15:42 -0500
>> > >
>> > >A dropping resistor simply generates more heat and provides no useful
>> > >function. The tubes are all rated at a higher voltage than is used,
>> > >recapping takes care of that area and the output transformer has
>> > sufficient
>> > >insulation. The extra B+ current drain is well under 10W.
>> > >
>> > >Benefit of a resistor in a rebuilt radio =  Zero.
>> > >
>> > >Benefit of a SS surge protector =  Zero also since they function at 
>> > >the
>> > >zero crossing of the sine wave.
>> > >
>> > >Carl
>> > >KM1H
>> > >
>> > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Rodger" <wq9e at dtnspeed.net>
>> > >To: "WØQFC" <erastber at tampabay.rr.com>
>> > >Cc: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>; "HALLICRAFTERS"
>> > ><hallicrafters at mailman.qth.net>
>> > >Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:36 AM
>> > >Subject: [Hallicrafters] Re: [Boatanchors] Replacing rect tubes with
>> > >diodesquestion
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>Hi Gene,
>> > >>
>> > >>You also need a dropping resistor to reduce the voltage to
>> > close to what
>> > >>would normally be supplied by the tube rectifier.  You can get a
> decent
>> > >>idea of what the resistor should be by looking at what the typical
> tube
>> > >>voltage drop is in normal operation, this information is
>> > available in the
>> > >>tube data books or the NJ7P online data base is handy:
>> > >>http://www.nj7p.org/Tube.php  I would imagine a 270 ohm 20 watt
>> > resistor
>> > >>connected in series with the common cathode connection would
>> > get you close
>> > >>enough.  Of course you could also use separate resistors for each
>> > >>replacement diode, in this case the resistor value would be doubled
> and
>> > >>the power rating would be halved.  I do replace a fair number
>> > of my tube
>> > >>rectifiers with SS rectifiers and some of the Halli power 
>> > >>transformers
>> > >>definitely benefit from this replacement.  I always build the
>> > SS as a plug
>> > >>in and disconnect the 5 volt heater leads from the socket to
>> > remove the B+
>> > >>from the 5 volt winding of the transformer since this is a
>> > fairly common
>> > >>failure mechanism in these older transformers.
>> > >>
>> > >>A couple of other considerations:  The B+ will come up
>> > instantly and will
>> > >>be higher than usual until the remaining tubes warm up and
>> > begin drawing
>> > >>current so if the filter caps are marginal this extra voltage will
>> > >>probably cause their rapid demise.  So replace any doubtful
>> > caps first. By
>> > >>the way, even with a tube rectifier the voltage is much higher
>> > just after
>> > >>turn on as the directly heated rectifier cathode heats up
>> > almost instantly
>> > >>in the existing tube type rectifier.  I would also consider adding an
>> > >>inrush current limiter to your set to further reduce the stress on 
>> > >>the
>> > >>transformer and tube filaments, suitable ones are available
>> > from Mouser or
>> > >>Digikey for around a couple of bucks and they are installed
>> > after the fuse
>> > >>and in series with the transformer primary.
>> > >>
>> > >>73, Rodger WQ9E
>> > >>
>> > >>WØQFC wrote:
>> > >>>I want to replace the # 80 in my S-40A with diodes so I can
>> > reduce heat
>> > >>>by less draw on the tranny.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Can I just use two diodes that will handle the current, or is there
>> > >>>something else I should do ~ additional parts, etc?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Also, I would like to replace the 6H6 for the same reason, but what
>> > >>>diodes should I use?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>I know that these items are available but in the interest of saving
>> > >>>money, I would like to do it myself. . . .
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Comments?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>73
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Gene, WØQFC
>> > >>>
>> > >>>www.w0qfc.com
>> > >>>
>> > >>>_______________________________________________
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>______________________________________________________________
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >______________________________________________________________
>> > f
>> >
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>>
>
> 