[Hallicrafters] Final EBAY Vote Tally

[Barry Hauser]

Hi Ray & Gang

Ray wrote:
> It would seem like Duane is trying to do the fair thing here, by 
> offering us our choice.

Right -- and no good deed will go unpunished.  That was Duane's first
mistake.  Democracy is a fine thing all right.  But two things about it: 
First, it ain't perfected yet. Second, there is a time and place for it. 
This ain't the time or the place.  There are many other situations in
life where it simply doesn't work - the military, for one.  
 
> As has been pointed out, the vote is flawed by splitting the 
> "Yes-Ebay"  vote into two subcategorizes.

Yes and no.  There is no perfect election or referendum.  If there were a
simple "all or nothing" choice, the argument could be made that it didn't
allow for other compromise choices.  But, again, there should have been
no vote taken on this.  It's a situation for a command decision, and the
correct decision is no Ebay reference at all.
 
> I think the only fair solution, since Duane wants us to be the 
> deciding factor here, is to re-vote under the following conditions:

That's illusory -- there is no fair solution.  Well, actually there IS,
and it's been done already.

> 
> 1. Only two choices - "Yes, allow E-BAY reference"
>                      - "No, allow no E-BAY reference"

Not really.  You don't want this, believe me. I will explain below.
 
> 2. If a person is willing to vote, then it should be a "voice" vote, 

> i.e. a list should be provided of everyone who votes "Yes" and "No", 
> 
> this will show Duanes support of the integrity of the vote and if 
> people don't want their vote/position known, they shouldn't vote.

Sorry Ray.  This flies in the face of early discoveries about democracy,
which resulted in the development of the secret ballot. There's a good
reason for it.  For one thing, public disclosure discourages voting. 
Your poll would be invalid because you gerrymandered those who are
concerned about their privacy and peace of mind smack right out of the
poll.  This can be argued from several directions -- forever.
> 
> 3. A specific timeframe for the vote should be established in 
> advance so we know when the vote will end up front.

Well, then, we might have to take a vote on just how long the voting
should be, and when the deadline should be, heh heh.  Then there are
issues about publishing results before the end.  There was that big to-do
about the networks calling the elections decided before some polls were
closed.

> 
> Since this topic has come up on other sites maintained by Duane and
Duane is showing his willingness to abide by the majority over this
issue, it might be appropriate if the vote announcement is put up 
> individually for each site to avoid future problems of this type on
those other sites. Just a suggestion >on this one.

My suggestion:  Fuggeddaboutdit!  That would be getting in deeper.  This
one is a call for Fearless Fascist Leader, not Bleeding Heart Guy.  I
will explain.

> I think this should satisfy everyone. I feel this is Duanes baby and 
> he should carry it forward as the list owner, but if he feels it is too

> complex to maintain and report this voting list, I would be glad to 
> offer my services.

Ray, I like you too much to let you do this.  Recommend you withdraw your
offer.

OK.  I promised you an explanation and here it is.  I am not one for
restricting communications and I'm quite open minded about what gets
posted, certainly don't care for "thought police", but there are limits
to this liberalism.  There is a line to be drawn and eBay should be out
along with religion and politics.  Here's why:

1. The subject is too volatile.  It sets off wild threads which
invariably run way off topic.  If you open the door so much as a crack,
the lists lose integrity.  Every one of them will become an ebay list.
Ebay is pervasive.
2. There is very little that can be posted, if anything, that's of any
real help to anybody on the list.  I.e, don't do me any favors.  Why ...
3.  Oh, thanks for pointing out that SX-Eleventy-Seven that's got no
reserve and currently cheap.  So much for that.  Calling attention to an
ebay auction tends to ramp up the bidding, so if there was somebody on
the list who had a half a chance, you've blown it for him.  Geee, thanks
a lot guy. I laugh when I see these posts.
4.  Descriptions of auction items tend to vary in quality and clarity. 
So, there will be commentary on that and whether the knobs are truly
correct, and is that a mod over there, and what about the guy's feedback,
and hey! that seller screwed me once., and so on and so on..
5.  It is impossible to police the number of posts per subscriber allowed
or the content of the posts.  Some have multiple identities and email
addresses.  Some might have a friend post about his auction.  There will
be a lot of uncontrollable unfairness, hard feelings, you name it.
6.  There will be ebay feedback on the lists.  Long ranging threads about
what a particular radio was really worth.  Observations about so and so's
bidding or selling habits.  Ebay this and Ebay that.
7.  Some are trying to control bad ebay habits, particulary of impulse
bidding.  As with other afflictions, sometimes the best way to put a lid
on it is to avoid or limit contact.  I have nothing against ebay.  It has
probably saved thousands of rigs from the landfills, but there are times
when I'd just as soon not have it shoved in my face, thank you.  I
suspect others feel that way and then some.  

Now I come to my pontifications on the raw truth about democracy.  The
USof A is not a pure democracy -- and that's a good thing.  The founding
fathers knew that trying to run a pure democracy is like trying to live
and breathe in an environment of pure oxygen.  In a pure democracy,
without controls and limits, the majority rules, period.  They knew that
the majority of citizens cannot be trusted.  Given the choice, they'll
vote for a fascist dictator every time.  The majority of 51% can vote to
annihilate the 49%.  And yes, it can get more interesting when the vote
goes three ways.  Our system is a composite, republic, whatever, where
leader-guided rules are set down and there is rule of law and
representative government and so on.  Yup, that ain't perfected yet
either.  But it's way better than the alternatives.

While I'm at it, here's another thing about votes, majority rule and
democracy.  You can have a situation where a significant minority feel
very strongly about some issue, say 30%, but the majority of 70% mostly
don't care too much either way.  The neighborly thing to do is to
accommodate the minority if at all possible, and very often it is
possible, if the majority cares more about preserving group size and
integrity.  If the majority always imposes it's choice, disenfranchising
the minority, the group, whatever it is, is subject to continous entropy
-- erosion, shrinkage, until it's down to a very small size which is too
small to sustain itself.  This is not theory.  It happens all the time --
if allowed to continue.

There's another elusive issue involved here -- "fairness".  This notion
of fairness does not exist in nature, or democracy as such.  Very often,
the closest thing to "fair" comes about by executive decision.  This has
already been done.  There is a venue on qth for discussing ebay, and
that's the ebay-FS list which was provided over a year ago by Al Waller. 
No need to vote on it --it's already there.  But, for some reason, nobody
posts to it.

Another handy provision:  The QTH lists make the email addresses of the
members available openly, so you can communicate privately with an
individual or group of people.  For example, if you know someone (or two)
is looking for a particular rig and see it on ebay, you can email them
directly.  Better yet, use the ebay feature to send them the auction page
link.  Don't tell the whole world so some lurker who never contributes
can swoop in.  That's simply dumb, isn't it?

So Ray, I appreciate where you're coming from, but gotta tell ya' you
don't want it, you really don't.  Don't get involved with polls, forget
about ebay posts, and don't play in traffic.

Here's another thing.  As you may have noticed from time to time, I can
post some humdingers. (Like this one, lengthwise.)  I have an awful lot
to say about eBay.  I can do 10,000 words in a heartbeat.  Do you really
want to unleash that?  (The horror, the horror !!!!)  This is not a
threat, I just won't be able to help myself.  That alone, is a good
reason to vote no. ;-)

Finally, I must now divulge that I am the Earth representative of a very
large constituency on a very big planet (Boatanchora) which, due to
temporary technical limitations, cannot directly subscribe to the lists. 
I have been ordered by my consituents to cast my block of five trillion
votes against any ebay references, except on the ebay-FS list.  If you
fail to tally their votes in the poll, their leader says "We'll be
baaaaaaack.  And this time we'll abduct radios and all remaining tubes. 
Not that we can't make our own tubes, but we like the NOS ones.  Woe
betide any earthling who has made irreversible mods.  Ebay will come in
handy for finding the rigs.  That reminds me -- Just a sec.  Glork --
immediately dispatch an Invader-Raider to glom that nice SX-88 -- right,
the 10K one.  The guitar player?  Nah, not unless you're gonna take the
whole group.  OK, where were we ...  Oh, yeah, We come in peace to serve
Man -- would you like yours with a side order of fries?"

Awright, so maybe I'm fibbing about the alien thing, but not about lack
of brevity. heh heh.

Bottom line -- think on it a spell, mull it over.  Why not use the
ebay-FS list, etc.  

best regards to all
Barry 

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