[GreenKeys] M28 ASR Print Issue
W2HX
w2hx at w2hx.com
Tue Jun 4 19:32:22 EDT 2024
Ok, so I've done some work here. I did some oiling. One felt (that rubs against the bars near the main clutch) was pretty dry. And some others.
Then I ran the RY test to find the range where it printed correctly. The range was surprisingly large. From 50-110 (max) worked fine. Below 50 the RYs turned into just spaces. So I set the range to 80 figuring the middle is the right place. It would have been more assuring if it stopped working somewhere before the top of the range but I couldn’t get it to print incorrectly until the range finder knob maxed out.
My KSR is set to about 65 (I didn’t want to change that since it works well). I then ran some audio recordings through the CV to exercise everything and the copy looked good. But the audio signals were strong and I suspect audio where the conditions were more marginal would have created more difference between the KSR and ASR. Just as my char generator makes perfect copy on both machines, good strong audio seems also to work well. It was really the less-good signals where the difference was more obvious.
Makes me realize the value of a regenerative capability on a TU/CV. At least they should both print the same with regeneration!
Ok, so we'll see how the signals are Saturday and hopefully things will have improved.
Thanks everyone!
73 Eugene W2HX
My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
-----Original Message-----
From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net <greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of W2HX
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2024 7:26 PM
To: John, W9DDD <w9ddd at tapr.org>; greenkeys at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] M28 ASR Print Issue
Yes mine has a relay. It is operated by the main line. Then a local supply (within the lesu) operates the page printer.
I'll check the bias. I think this relay is not an adjustable one (it doesn’t appear to be, but I could be wrong). But bias is the first thing I'll check.
73 Eugene W2HX
My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
-----Original Message-----
From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net <greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of John, W9DDD
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 11:18 PM
To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] M28 ASR Print Issue
So does your LESU have a line relay in it? Mine does. I'd like to bypass it, but it is involved in a function that I find useful. So maybe the line relay has become maladjusted? Or if a mercury wetted one maybe on way to failure? A lot of guessing on my part of course?
On 6/3/2024 7:59 PM, W2HX wrote:
> Ok Thanks everyone for the input and suggestions. I'll do some lubrication, I'll check range finder settings etc.
>
> One thing I should mention, the KSR has the selector magnets directly on the loop. The ASR has a LESU between the external loop and the page printer.
> Could this be a bias adjustment issue?
>
> Here is the real problem I'm facing. If I send RYs or QBF, both printers work the same (perfect copy). However, in real-world situations (off the air) they are far from the same. The ASR has a much worse copy. Even though they are using the same TU (CV-2460) to convert the audio to loop current, and the loop by definition, has the same traffic (and signalling characteristics) for both printers, the ASR is much worse.
>
> I have not been able to duplicate the problem using the character generator EXCEPT when doing dot cycles. And if this is not a valid test for page printers then I can't really reproduce the problem.
>
> This isn’t 100% true. I have recorded audio from some past RATT sessions that I can use. I will note that in the past, I have attempted to use those off-the-air recordings and use the range adjustment to produce better copy. It never really was conclusive. I was hoping to generate the loop traffic locally to have a more controlled environment.
>
> Perhaps I should try to introduce some distortion on the loop to see how sensitive the ASR is to this, and try to compensate somehow with the range finder. Not sure...
> Ok more work to do here. Thanks everyone!
>
>
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> <greenkeys-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of John, W9DDD
> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 7:21 PM
> To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] M28 ASR Print Issue
>
> My impression is that dot cycle is designed to test a circuit for bias.
> Square wave in and hopefully square at the other end of the line. The
> QBF and RY are for testing terminal equipment.
>
> One normally would think of the dot cycle being a square wave with no bias. (can't tell from the panel controls if it provides for putting a bias in the dot cycle.) On the other hand the test signal QBF etc on older tests (and I assume this one too) allowed you to introduce all different kinds of bias to test the terminal's ability to deal with them.
>
>
> On 6/3/2024 5:14 AM, Nick England wrote:
>> Yes to the range adjustment.
>>
>> Note that “dot cycle” or “reversals” is NOT the same as RYRY.
>> Reversals 01010101010101
>> RYRY. 0101011/0010101/
>> (/just to show characters)
>>
>> Depending on the machine it might print RYRY for reversals or might
>> not. I suspect 7 vs 7.42 speed makes a difference but haven’t
>> bothered to verify that.
>>
>> Anyway set the range control with real RY characters, not reversals.
>>
>> Reversals are great for adjusting polar relays and transmission
>> circuits, not printers.
>>
>> Nick England K4NYW
>> www.navy-radio.com <http://www.navy-radio.com>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2024 at 10:13 PM Duncan Brown
>> <duncanancy at earthlink.net <mailto:duncanancy at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Eugene,
>>
>> With the "Dot cycle" signal, you are generating a short stop pulse
>> (22ms).
>>
>> Check the motor speed and the Range control. You can probably get
>> it to print correctly with a Range adjustment. If the Range
>> setting is much different than the other unit, it indicates
>> another problem.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Duncan
>> K2OEQ
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/2/2024 10:04 PM, W2HX wrote:
>>> Thanks Jeff. They both used to work 100% in sync a few years ago.
>>> This is something that has changed in the last few years.
>>>
>>> One thing I’ll do is put the character generator on a scope (in
>>> series with a voltage source) to see what exactly is the
>>> difference between setting two characters of R and Y vs. dot cycle.
>>>
>>> As you suggested, I just tried the dot cycle on the ASR only
>>> (removing the KSR) and still had the same result RYYRYY.
>>>
>>> I should also mention that, the rhythm of the machine sounds
>>> “off” almost like it is running faster than 45 baud. Not much
>>> faster, but just sounds off. It used to be when I ran both
>>> machines together, they audibly would be perfect. Now the ASR
>>> sounds like it is running a little faster. That is the only thing
>>> I can think of to describe the sound.
>>>
>>> 73 Eugene W2HX
>>> My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
>>>
>>> *From:*Jeffrey Golas <jeffg at junknet.net> <mailto:jeffg at junknet.net>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 2, 2024 9:56 PM
>>> *To:* W2HX <w2hx at w2hx.com> <mailto:w2hx at w2hx.com>
>>> *Cc:* Greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>
>>> <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [GreenKeys] M28 ASR Print Issue
>>>
>>> Id compare selector magnet resistance/inductance, the repeating
>>> letters aImost seem like a signal issue than mechanical. Id also
>>> try an RY paper tape by itself (or try your tester on just that
>>> machine).
>>>
>>> I wonder if one is intended for a different current rating or has
>>> any resistors on the loop that are aging or just too large.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 2, 2024, at 9:37 PM, W2HX <w2hx at w2hx.com
>>> <mailto:w2hx at w2hx.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For the last several years, I’ve noticed that my ASR does not
>>> print traffic the same as my KSR both are on the same loop. I
>>> would say the accuracy of the print is much worse than the
>>> KSR. But since I had the KSR working well, I never had the
>>> impetus to look into in detail. Tonight, I did a simple test
>>> and saw some interesting results.
>>>
>>> First, I am using a character generator which seems to work
>>> well (see attached picture). The character generator has
>>> several modes, QBF (sentence) is one mode, then you can set
>>> up two individual characters and send an alternating series
>>> of these characters. It also has a “dot cycle” mode, which I
>>> believe is simply alternating mark and space.
>>>
>>> When I set up R and Y and send them out, both printers work
>>> perfectly. However, when I use the DOT CYCLE mode, the KSR
>>> again works FB, but the ASR shows RYYRYYRYY. Below are links
>>> to the print copy. Note there are two “paragraphs” on the
>>> page. The top paragraph is using the individual R and Y
>>> characters set up using toggle switches. The second paragraph
>>> shows the results of the DOT CYCLE mode. Again, these are on
>>> the same current loop.
>>>
>>> KSR page:
>>>
>>> https://w2hx.com/x/What-Is-It/ASR-Printing-Issue/20240602_191335.jpg
>>>
>>> ASR page:
>>>
>>> https://w2hx.com/x/What-Is-It/ASR-Printing-Issue/20240602_191352.jpg
>>>
>>> Anyone have any suggestions where to look?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> 73 Eugene W2HX
>>> My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
>>>
>>> <20240602_191208.jpg>
>>>
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> --
> ---
> ----
> The above comments or recommendations are SWAG. Use at your own risk.
>
> John, W9DDD
>
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--
---
----
The above comments or recommendations are SWAG. Use at your own risk.
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