[GreenKeys] PC board work.

Bob kb8tq kb8tq at n1k.org
Tue Jan 26 13:18:14 EST 2021 

Hi

KiCAD also has tools for making library parts. Indeed that way you know
what you have. Regardless of how great the tool is, brewing up the 
“stuff” for a part with a few hundred pins/ balls on it will take a while. 
Being able to go “click” and download it from the outfit that made the
part can be helpful ….

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:33 PM, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net> wrote:
> 
> I don't waste time looking for 3rd-party library parts that I likely won't like and need to tweak anyway.  It is faster to just make the part myself.
> 
> The eagle library manager provides the needed functions of drawing the schematic symbol with labeled pins for connecting to nets, creating the physical footprints with labeled pads for the board, and creating a device that connects the pins on the schematic symbol to one or more board package footprints.
> 
> It may seem daunting to create a footprint.  Something as simple as a dip or soic is easy enough as you are working with pads on a simple grid, but many parts today are randomishly-dimensioned nightmares at first glance.  But, the grid is your friend.  An example:  let's say you have a 4-pin smt oscillator with 1.2 x 2.1 mm (X,Y) pads, on 6.2mm centers horizontally, and 4.9mm centers vertically.  The easy way:
> - plop an smt pad, 1.2mm wide by 2.1mm high in the center 0,0 point
> - set grid to 3.1mm (half of 6.2)
> - drag the pad to the left by 3.1mm
> - clone that pad and plop it two grid spaces to the right.
> - set grid to 2.45mm (half of 4.9)
> - drag the two pads down by 2.45mm
> - clone those two pads and plop them two grid spaces up.
> - then number them properly
> - add your silk etc.
> - boom.  done.  easy-peasy.
> 
> You are correct about the board houses performing a full drc -- they have to do it so it won't violate their process for min trace/space etc.  I still run drc to catch my stupid errors, and still peek at gerbers to ensure they look ok.  I found a bug in an older eagle version that I caught in the gerbers.  Even today, I manually edit the excellon file to add a line that says INCH, since the cam generator does not insert it, and my hole sizes are inch and not mm.  It needs to be explicit when it goes offshore (even though they will usually presume inch and substitute holes in the nearest 0.5mm size).
> 
> One thing that is cleaned up by the board house without any interaction is to remove any silk that would end up on pads, so if my footprint accidentally had silk crossing where solder should go, they just quietly roll their eyes up and fix it.
> 
> There is another eagle bug that I look for in the gerbers:  I often use a bottom-layer ground fill plane that is hatched (a habit from the old days of thermal control for wave solder).  Anyway, I also use vias that are smaller than the holes opened in the hatch, and eagle does not always connect them with thermals if they are the same net (gnd, dgn, agnd, whatever).  If I see that, I nudge those vias over a tad and regen the gerbers.  Silly stupid things likely fixed in the current version, but I am a few years behind on a 7.something version.
> 
> fwiw, gil
> 
> 
> gil smith, AF7EZ
> greenkeys moderator
> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
> From: Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org <mailto:kb8tq at n1k.org>>
> Date: Tue, January 26, 2021 7:29 am
> To: Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>>
> Cc: Steve Garrison <steve.n4tty at gmail.com <mailto:steve.n4tty at gmail.com>>, Gerry
> <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>>, greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
> 
> Hi
> 
> One of the strong and weak points in KiCAD is the libraries. Their
> system for organizing and searching them needs help. So did the 
> system we used at work on a much more expensive suite. 
> 
> The range of parts that you can get in KiCAD format is amazing. 
> There are lots and lots of free sources that will provide you with
> library entries for a ton of stuff. Is it all done exactly “your way?” 
> … maybe not. For a quick project they seem to work just fine. 
> I would quick check *any* third party library entry before using it. 
> 
> The normal fiddle the solder mask / change the solder paste (and
> blocking zones and ….) all is in there along with the usual controls
> on via types as they go through many layers. 
> 
> DRC is there in KiCAD. It will do the basics. We had *much* more
> extensive rules on boards with the stuff at work. It’s the one area
> of KiCAD that I think needs the most help. That said, what they
> have is (barely) adequate. 
> 
> I go back far enough to remember the era of “spend a couple of 
> days checking the Gerbers” on any fancy board. It’s been a *long*
> time since that was the case with any program I would use. There
> are now enough good programs out there at many price levels.
> You don’t have to limp along anymore. 
> 
> I use a third party Gerber checker these days simply to catch the *really*
> dumb stuff ( I seem to have labeled layer 5 as layer 6 ….. it happens ..).
> If the third party program does not show what the view in the layout
> program shows, time to switch out one program or the other. 
> 
> With a good board house, your layout (even on a cheap board) is
> going to go through some fairly fancy checking on their end. You
> likely will get an email (or phone call) as a result if you are doing 
> something crazy / non-standard. I would never *depend* on that 
> review, but it is there. Having a 5 mil spacing come up as a fault at
> 4.998 mils is ok, having it come up at 4 mils is not ….
> 
> Fun !!!
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2021, at 1:24 AM, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> I also have hear good things about kicad, but never tried it.  Interesting that it can import eagle files -- does it keep the schematic and board layout netlists in sync like eagle? 
>> 
>> What about importing eagle libraries?  In any pcb program, your constantly-evolving library is your life-blood.  The library is not simply a collection of schematic symbols and physical footprints, but needs to allow for selecting different physical parts with just a click -- Ahh, my layout is getting too tight for that opa2376 in the soic8 so I need to change to the vssop...  There are other subtle things like being able to manually define say four small square solderpaste openings for the ground pad under some chips and not the entire pad, since that would be way too much solder under there.  The library editor needs to give you control like that when you are building parts.
>> 
>> Can kicad do things like swell soldermask a couple of mils, and shrink the solderpaste also, as needed?  Pad in via?  Tented vias?  
>> 
>> It is also handy in eagle to have the drc checker on the board -- I define the rules I want to enforce (copper-to-copper min spacing...) and save a named drc rules set.  Then check against it before generating gerbers.  I usually have a few clearance errors to fix.  The erc in the schematic module is less handy, though it has caught an occasion or two where a net didn't actually connect to a pin.
>> 
>> Speaking of gerbers, I like gerberlogix for peeking at them before sending them off to fab.  Import the exellon drill file and all the layers and then turn on or off the layers you want to look at (top-copper-only, then add solderpaste, then soldermask...).  You can zoom and check out the gerbers to ensure everything looks decent before buying the boards.  https://www.easylogix.de/products_detail.php?prog_id=1 <https://www.easylogix.de/products_detail.php?prog_id=1>
>> 
>> gil
>> 
>> 
>> gil smith, AF7EZ
>> greenkeys moderator
>> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
>> 
>> 
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
>> From: Steve Garrison <steve.n4tty at gmail.com <mailto:steve.n4tty at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Mon, January 25, 2021 4:04 am
>> To: Gerry <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>>
>> Cc: Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>>, greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
>> 
>> For you folks that haven't used layout software and dislike paid and/or subscription software as much as Eric and I do, might I suggest KiCad.
>> 
>> They will soon be releasing v6 and I'm currently trying out the nightly builds of v5.99 which will become v6 when it's ready for prime time.
>> 
>> Have been using and learned KiCad on v5.  It is free, very widely used, and its main support comes from CERN. The folks with that big particle accelerator in Switzerland.  There is a paid version if you just have to have a paid version, or you can make donations to help support the free version.
>> 
>> At least check it out.
>> 
>> Steve G./N4TTY
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 25, 2021, at 1:59 AM, Gerry <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Unbelievable. 
>>> Thanks for update. 
>>> Takes skill to deal with 0402!
>>> 
>>> Gerry
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 24, 2021, at 6:49 PM, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I have used Eagle since 2006 when I splurged and bought the full-up 16-layer version with the auto-router.  The autorouter was only kinda useful to me on one really dense digital board, and I never renewed that option when I upgraded.  I have never gone beyond six layers;  I mostly do 4 layers, but sometimes 2 or 6. 
>>>> 
>>>> <rant>
>>>> Then Eagle was bought out by Autocad, and it went to a subscription plan, which I hate.  So I will happily use my several-year-old version forever.  I have the final non-subscription versions of photoshop and illustrator as well, so bite me Adobe.  This subscription software stuff really pisses me off.
>>>> </rant>
>>>> 
>>>> Eagle has its quirks, but I can do anything I want or need with it.  I do a lot of mixed-signal stuff:  analog conditioning, 24bit adcs, micros...  I regularly hand-assemble down to 0.5mm pitch and 0402 -- just me, two pairs of reading glasses, and quality solder wick :}
>>>> 
>>>> gil
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> gil smith, AF7EZ
>>>> greenkeys moderator
>>>> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
>>>> From: Gerry Block <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>>
>>>> Date: Sun, January 24, 2021 6:46 pm
>>>> To: Jeffrey Angus <jdangus at att.net <mailto:jdangus at att.net>>, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>>
>>>> Cc: greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
>>>> 
>>>> Gil,
>>>> 
>>>>   What layout program do you use?
>>>> 
>>>> Gerry
>>>> AD6MC
>>>> 
>>>> On Sunday, January 24, 2021, 5:10:00 PM PST, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hey Jeff:
>>>> 
>>>> Where do you get your boards?  For the last few years I have been using pcbway in China:
>>>> https://www.pcbway.com <https://www.pcbway.com/>/
>>>> 
>>>> They have been awesome and I have done dozens of 2- and 4-layer boards there.  About a week turn plus a a few days shipping (get DHL, not fedex).  Instant quote on the home page.  Best prices I have found (though I sometimes get hit with a 25% tariff fee).  Variety of soldermask colors avail (some cost extra).  I like red, blue, and black -- the yellow is gross.  Arrays are easy.  Routing and V-groove not too costly.
>>>> 
>>>> They do full-turn assembly though I have not used that service.
>>>> 
>>>> thx, gil
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> gil smith, AF7EZ
>>>> greenkeys moderator
>>>> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
>>>> From: Jeffrey Angus <jdangus at att.net <mailto:jdangus at att.net>>
>>>> Date: Sun, January 24, 2021 12:33 pm
>>>> To: greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
>>>> 
>>>> This is what I do in my spare time now that I'm retired.
>>>> I use Express PCB software.
>>>> A few years back I designed a two speed motor controller
>>>> for my Lorenz Lo-15c.
>>>> Last year I did a signal converter for Sen Williams to go
>>>> from on/off keying to bi-polar for his Creed TTYs.
>>>> 
>>>> All I need is a schematic.
>>>> And you get the PC Board schematic redrawn for ExpressPCB
>>>> and the PC Board layouts.
>>>> 
>>>> And no, I don't charge for this.
>>>> Although, I'm not too proud to accept donations, if you're
>>>> feeling guilty about it.
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> "I am a river to my people."
>>>> Jeff-1.0
>>>> WA6FWI
>>>> www.foxsmercantile.com <http://www.foxsmercantile.com/>
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
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