[GreenKeys] PC board work.

Bob kb8tq kb8tq at n1k.org
Tue Jan 26 09:29:00 EST 2021 

Hi

One of the strong and weak points in KiCAD is the libraries. Their
system for organizing and searching them needs help. So did the 
system we used at work on a much more expensive suite. 

The range of parts that you can get in KiCAD format is amazing. 
There are lots and lots of free sources that will provide you with
library entries for a ton of stuff. Is it all done exactly “your way?” 
… maybe not. For a quick project they seem to work just fine. 
I would quick check *any* third party library entry before using it. 

The normal fiddle the solder mask / change the solder paste (and
blocking zones and ….) all is in there along with the usual controls
on via types as they go through many layers. 

DRC is there in KiCAD. It will do the basics. We had *much* more
extensive rules on boards with the stuff at work. It’s the one area
of KiCAD that I think needs the most help. That said, what they
have is (barely) adequate. 

I go back far enough to remember the era of “spend a couple of 
days checking the Gerbers” on any fancy board. It’s been a *long*
time since that was the case with any program I would use. There
are now enough good programs out there at many price levels.
You don’t have to limp along anymore. 

I use a third party Gerber checker these days simply to catch the *really*
dumb stuff ( I seem to have labeled layer 5 as layer 6 ….. it happens ..).
If the third party program does not show what the view in the layout
program shows, time to switch out one program or the other. 

With a good board house, your layout (even on a cheap board) is
going to go through some fairly fancy checking on their end. You
likely will get an email (or phone call) as a result if you are doing 
something crazy / non-standard. I would never *depend* on that 
review, but it is there. Having a 5 mil spacing come up as a fault at
4.998 mils is ok, having it come up at 4 mils is not ….

Fun !!!

Bob





> On Jan 26, 2021, at 1:24 AM, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net> wrote:
> 
> I also have hear good things about kicad, but never tried it.  Interesting that it can import eagle files -- does it keep the schematic and board layout netlists in sync like eagle? 
> 
> What about importing eagle libraries?  In any pcb program, your constantly-evolving library is your life-blood.  The library is not simply a collection of schematic symbols and physical footprints, but needs to allow for selecting different physical parts with just a click -- Ahh, my layout is getting too tight for that opa2376 in the soic8 so I need to change to the vssop...  There are other subtle things like being able to manually define say four small square solderpaste openings for the ground pad under some chips and not the entire pad, since that would be way too much solder under there.  The library editor needs to give you control like that when you are building parts.
> 
> Can kicad do things like swell soldermask a couple of mils, and shrink the solderpaste also, as needed?  Pad in via?  Tented vias?  
> 
> It is also handy in eagle to have the drc checker on the board -- I define the rules I want to enforce (copper-to-copper min spacing...) and save a named drc rules set.  Then check against it before generating gerbers.  I usually have a few clearance errors to fix.  The erc in the schematic module is less handy, though it has caught an occasion or two where a net didn't actually connect to a pin.
> 
> Speaking of gerbers, I like gerberlogix for peeking at them before sending them off to fab.  Import the exellon drill file and all the layers and then turn on or off the layers you want to look at (top-copper-only, then add solderpaste, then soldermask...).  You can zoom and check out the gerbers to ensure everything looks decent before buying the boards.  https://www.easylogix.de/products_detail.php?prog_id=1 <https://www.easylogix.de/products_detail.php?prog_id=1>
> 
> gil
> 
> 
> gil smith, AF7EZ
> greenkeys moderator
> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
> From: Steve Garrison <steve.n4tty at gmail.com <mailto:steve.n4tty at gmail.com>>
> Date: Mon, January 25, 2021 4:04 am
> To: Gerry <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>>
> Cc: Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>>, greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
> 
> For you folks that haven't used layout software and dislike paid and/or subscription software as much as Eric and I do, might I suggest KiCad.
> 
> They will soon be releasing v6 and I'm currently trying out the nightly builds of v5.99 which will become v6 when it's ready for prime time.
> 
> Have been using and learned KiCad on v5.  It is free, very widely used, and its main support comes from CERN. The folks with that big particle accelerator in Switzerland.  There is a paid version if you just have to have a paid version, or you can make donations to help support the free version.
> 
> At least check it out.
> 
> Steve G./N4TTY
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 25, 2021, at 1:59 AM, Gerry <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> 
>> Unbelievable. 
>> Thanks for update. 
>> Takes skill to deal with 0402!
>> 
>> Gerry
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 24, 2021, at 6:49 PM, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have used Eagle since 2006 when I splurged and bought the full-up 16-layer version with the auto-router.  The autorouter was only kinda useful to me on one really dense digital board, and I never renewed that option when I upgraded.  I have never gone beyond six layers;  I mostly do 4 layers, but sometimes 2 or 6. 
>>> 
>>> <rant>
>>> Then Eagle was bought out by Autocad, and it went to a subscription plan, which I hate.  So I will happily use my several-year-old version forever.  I have the final non-subscription versions of photoshop and illustrator as well, so bite me Adobe.  This subscription software stuff really pisses me off.
>>> </rant>
>>> 
>>> Eagle has its quirks, but I can do anything I want or need with it.  I do a lot of mixed-signal stuff:  analog conditioning, 24bit adcs, micros...  I regularly hand-assemble down to 0.5mm pitch and 0402 -- just me, two pairs of reading glasses, and quality solder wick :}
>>> 
>>> gil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> gil smith, AF7EZ
>>> greenkeys moderator
>>> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
>>> From: Gerry Block <gblock at sbcglobal.net <mailto:gblock at sbcglobal.net>>
>>> Date: Sun, January 24, 2021 6:46 pm
>>> To: Jeffrey Angus <jdangus at att.net <mailto:jdangus at att.net>>, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>>
>>> Cc: greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
>>> 
>>> Gil,
>>> 
>>>   What layout program do you use?
>>> 
>>> Gerry
>>> AD6MC
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, January 24, 2021, 5:10:00 PM PST, Gil Smith <gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hey Jeff:
>>> 
>>> Where do you get your boards?  For the last few years I have been using pcbway in China:
>>> https://www.pcbway.com <https://www.pcbway.com/>/
>>> 
>>> They have been awesome and I have done dozens of 2- and 4-layer boards there.  About a week turn plus a a few days shipping (get DHL, not fedex).  Instant quote on the home page.  Best prices I have found (though I sometimes get hit with a 25% tariff fee).  Variety of soldermask colors avail (some cost extra).  I like red, blue, and black -- the yellow is gross.  Arrays are easy.  Routing and V-groove not too costly.
>>> 
>>> They do full-turn assembly though I have not used that service.
>>> 
>>> thx, gil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> gil smith, AF7EZ
>>> greenkeys moderator
>>> gil at baudot.net <mailto:gil at baudot.net>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: [GreenKeys] PC board work.
>>> From: Jeffrey Angus <jdangus at att.net <mailto:jdangus at att.net>>
>>> Date: Sun, January 24, 2021 12:33 pm
>>> To: greenkeys <greenkeys at mailman.qth.net <mailto:greenkeys at mailman.qth.net>>
>>> 
>>> This is what I do in my spare time now that I'm retired.
>>> I use Express PCB software.
>>> A few years back I designed a two speed motor controller
>>> for my Lorenz Lo-15c.
>>> Last year I did a signal converter for Sen Williams to go
>>> from on/off keying to bi-polar for his Creed TTYs.
>>> 
>>> All I need is a schematic.
>>> And you get the PC Board schematic redrawn for ExpressPCB
>>> and the PC Board layouts.
>>> 
>>> And no, I don't charge for this.
>>> Although, I'm not too proud to accept donations, if you're
>>> feeling guilty about it.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> "I am a river to my people."
>>> Jeff-1.0
>>> WA6FWI
>>> www.foxsmercantile.com <http://www.foxsmercantile.com/>
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>>>>> Jordan Spencer Cunningham's GreenKeys Search Tool: https://teletype.net/gksearch <https://teletype.net/gksearch>
>>>>>> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ <http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/>
>>>>>> 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive: http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html <http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html>
>>>>>> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool: http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html <http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html>
>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
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>> 
>>>>> Jordan Spencer Cunningham's GreenKeys Search Tool: https://teletype.net/gksearch <https://teletype.net/gksearch>
>>>>> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ <http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/>
>>>>> 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive: http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html <http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html>
>>>>> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool: http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html <http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html>
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
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>>>> Jordan Spencer Cunningham's GreenKeys Search Tool: https://teletype.net/gksearch
>>>> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/
>>>> 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive: http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html
>>>> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool: http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html
> 
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