[GreenKeys] UPDATE- shockingly basic question - Teletype Model 33 ASR
Andy KN4UCL
kn4ucl at gmail.com
Tue Feb 9 20:26:04 EST 2021
I removed the SMD card and took a photo (see attached) and all looks
visually OK. Before swapping with the other one I popped it back in just
to make sure things were as before... but yikes! Quite a buzzing sound in
Line or Local. Line was no longer working and Local would not type very
faithfully. Buzzing did not stop so I quickly powered off, and when I did
there was a gentle mechanical 'pop' as the power released. I removed and
repositioned the card ... but same symptoms.
Thought I'd better power off before something starts burning!
On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:21 PM Michael Katzmann <vk2bea at gmail.com> wrote:
> Try swapping the selector magnet driver card between the two units. (
> vertical card on the right hand edge). If you are having problems in local
> then it is not the RS232-current loop circuit but it might be the magnet
> driver.
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 4:53 PM Andy KN4UCL <kn4ucl at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So RIGHT NOW the machine is running great, just like in the video from
>> 1:42s onwards. It also prints perfectly in Local mode as well right now,
>> no matter how fast I try to type.
>>
>> However - it will intermittently go back to garbage output, as is shown
>> prior to 1:42s in the video.
>>
>> When I was testing in Local last night it was OK typing slowly, but
>> typing a little fast caused garbage output.
>>
>> So I think the terminal is intermittently behaving badly, in LIne and
>> Local.
>>
>> But.. of course... right now it is behaving itself!
>>
>> cheers
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 2:21 PM Michael Katzmann <vk2bea at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see this as a parity issue. I would expect the ASR33 typing unit
>>> to ignore parity on receive. Although, I think the tape punch will punch
>>> the eighth bit (or parity) if received.
>>> Likewise the tape reader will read and send all eight bits.
>>>
>>> Does the ASR read a tape and print consistently in local ?
>>> I'd be suspicious of the RS232 converter. If you have an
>>> oscilloscope and can look at the RS232 input compared with the current loop
>>> output it may prove or dispel this hypothesis.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 1:22 PM Andy KN4UCL <kn4ucl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well I was hoping that it was either my serial loop adapter acting up,
>>>> or a cabling-from-serial-converter-to-terminal-server problem. I've
>>>> replaced everything (including the terminal server) but sadly no obvious
>>>> fix.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-w-HCXI25E
>>>>
>>>> I've got two similar 33s (both no parity keyboards) and I've had them
>>>> both running at the same time connected to my terminal server for a while
>>>> now. Recently I get very garbled data on one of them. It doesn't seem to
>>>> be related to the connected equipment or cabling as I've replaced
>>>> everything.
>>>>
>>>> Then... very weirdly it starts working again, as you can see at 1:42s
>>>> on the video.
>>>>
>>>> Apart from fiddling about with the rangefinder, any other thoughts
>>>> about (simple 😁) tests or adjustments I can make to diagnose this?
>>>>
>>>> thanks folks.
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:33 PM Andy KN4UCL <kn4ucl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK well this is all very embarrassing. I have two almost identical 33s
>>>>> (both non-parity) .... the other one works great connected to my Terminal
>>>>> Server so thought I'd better swap the RS232 Adapters, port and cable.. and
>>>>> hey presto - my "not working due to parity errors" Teletype started running
>>>>> fine!
>>>>>
>>>>> I then swapped back to the original RS232 adapter, cables and port...
>>>>> expecting things to NOT work... but of course, everything ran fine (sigh.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried jiggling the cables (I was hopeful maybe a weird cable
>>>>> problem could be the issue) but I am struggling to see how a wiring problem
>>>>> would look like a legit parity problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway! All good for now.. but I am curious what would cause these
>>>>> parity-like symptoms. I am going to replace the cables anyway, and probably
>>>>> grab another RS232 converter just in case.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers!
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 11:05 PM Mike Douglas <deramp5113 at yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since you are concerned about the parity of your keyboard while
>>>>>> testing the TTY printing function, I assume your terminal server is in a
>>>>>> mode where it echos characters that you type on the TTY keyboard back out
>>>>>> to the TTY printer and you are testing your printer by typing on the TTY
>>>>>> keyboard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this is what you’re doing and you have a non-parity keyboard, then
>>>>>> set the serial port to 7 data bits plus mark parity (non parity keyboards
>>>>>> set the 8th bit to one). This should ensure the server accepts the typed
>>>>>> characters. If you type one character at a time with a short pause between
>>>>>> each character, then each character should echo properly to the TTY
>>>>>> printer. The pause between each character will be more than the two stop
>>>>>> bits the printer requires (and the printer ignores the 8th bit).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If, however, you have a telnet session open and are sending data from
>>>>>> a remote device to the TTY printer and are not using the TTY keyboard to
>>>>>> generate test data, then set the serial port to 8 data bits plus mark
>>>>>> parity. This will appear as 8 data bits and 2 stop bits to the printer (as
>>>>>> it requires) and the printer can then keep up with a steady stream of data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are getting some garbage characters with either of these
>>>>>> methods but everything prints correctly in local mode, you made need to
>>>>>> adjust the rangefinder a bit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 9:22 PM, Andy KN4UCL <kn4ucl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Teletype has a Deramp converter which goes direct into an Equinox
>>>>>> ELS-16 terminal server. When I start I get a session with the terminal
>>>>>> server and can interact directly with the server ... or telnet onwards
>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Mike Douglas <deramp5113 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess I’m confused as to your test setup then. What is sending
>>>>>> data to your Teletype? Is it coming from an external source other than the
>>>>>> Teletype, or are you testing by somehow looping keyboard input from your
>>>>>> TTY back out to the TTY printer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 8:36 PM, Andy KN4UCL <kn4ucl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I am still missing a trick or two here...I tried every
>>>>>> combination of 8 and 7 even/odd/none/mark/space and I get no printing at
>>>>>> all with 8 bit, but moderately bad spelling errors with 7. See attachment
>>>>>> below... presumably this means I have the non-parity keyboard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks in advance for your thoughts!
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 8:18 PM Mike Douglas <deramp5113 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you select 8 bit with mark parity on your terminal server, you’ll
>>>>>>> probably get the 8N2 timing the Teletype requires (the mark parity bit
>>>>>>> serves as the first stop bit).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 7:11 PM, Andy KN4UCL <kn4ucl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks guys for the responses - a lot of great info for me to
>>>>>>> digest!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My terminal server (Equinox ELS-16) allows me to define character
>>>>>>> size as 7 or 8 bits, and to set parity as NONE, ODD, EVEN, MARK or SPACE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't seem to have the ability to specifically state the number of
>>>>>>> stop bits, however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway.. I'm going to crack my Teletype open and confirm exactly
>>>>>>> what's going on.
>>>>>>> cheers!
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 5:43 PM Keith Lueck <kwlueck at swbell.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim & Wayne are spot-on, of course. I learned the hard way that
>>>>>>>> you best include the parity bit - even though the 33 doesn't give a whit
>>>>>>>> about parity...
>>>>>>>> My machine was occasionally producing errors when I was feeding it
>>>>>>>> 7 N 2. Wayne Durkee set me straight, and, viola, when I sent it 7 M 2,
>>>>>>>> everything was 100% ducky.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 31, 2021, 03:32:30 PM CST, Jim Haynes <
>>>>>>>> jhhaynes at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the 33s and 35s generate 11 unit code. 1 start bit, 7 data
>>>>>>>> bits, one
>>>>>>>> bit which may be even parity or may be marking, and two stop bits.
>>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>> where 110 baud comes from. 100 wpm = 10 chars/sec and each char
>>>>>>>> contains
>>>>>>>> 11 bits. The reason for two stop bits is the difficulty of making a
>>>>>>>> mechanical selector that is reliable at 100 wpm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ya can argue all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was."
>>>>>>>> "No it ain't! No it ain't! But ya gotta know the territory."
>>>>>>>> Meredith Willson, The Music Man
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jordan Spencer Cunningham's GreenKeys Search Tool:
>>>>>>> https://teletype.net/gksearch
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>>> Message delivered to deramp5113 at yahoo.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <non parity keyboard.png>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net
>>>>
>>>> >>> Jordan Spencer Cunningham's GreenKeys Search Tool:
>>>> https://teletype.net/gksearch
>>>> >>> 2002-to-present greenkeys archive:
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/
>>>> >>> 1998-to-2001 greenkeys archive:
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/greenkeys.html
>>>> >>> Randy Guttery's 2001-to-2009 GreenKeys Search Tool:
>>>> http://comcents.com/tty/greenkeyssearch.html
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to vk2bea at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
> |\ _,,,---,,_ Michael Katzmann
> /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ NV3Z / VK2BEA / G4NYV
> |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) vk2bea at gmail.com
>
>
>
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