[FADCA] HAMS using Internet

[Jerry DeLong]

All,

 It's seems Bud was wrong when he said "No one really cares" in my previous
RANT. It looks to me as if there are still plenty of people that care or
they would have not taken the time to contribute to this thread.

 I think we could learn from the Sedan network. Here is a flat network
of Netrom nodes that can get the job done. It simple in nature and requires
little no maintenance. For this very same reason is why Flexnet type
networks works well.

 My biggest complaint with Rose is that it not self routing like Netrom
or a Flexnet type node. Very seldom do I ever have a need to add a static
route for my Netrom or Flexnet nodes. 

 As John Daughtry said "So guys don't fuss make it work together the
different protocols can exist and in harmony." You're correct and that
been my goal working with Fpac node. Currently I have integrated Fpac
into Amprnet, Flexnet, and at one point was sending email from Fpac
shell.



Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL


> -----Original Message-----
> From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> On Behalf Of Barry isbelle
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:55 PM
> To: 'Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association'
> Cc: TNolan1013 at aol.com
> Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> 
> Sedan is still here, alive and well. Most of the state still has solid
> coverage. Nice thing about Sedan that it is self supporting and runs
> without
> internet support. The nodes run entirely without computers. The node is a
> specially programmed TNC and a radio only. 145.770 is the frequency.
> It is a mailbox to mailbox system and may seem dull to most, but it can
> deliver the mail. Primary commands are familiar to most, R to list known
> routes, N will list the known remote nodes, MH to list the latest logins
> and
> C to go to the nearest mailbox. B will exit you from the system.
> 
> I believe that the most damaging aspect of our hobby is the political
> influence of the ARRL. Nothing else even comes close. It has been this way
> since before I got my first ticket in '69.
> 
>                                             Regards to all , Barry N2Db
> Orlando
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> On Behalf Of J daughtry
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:27 AM
> To: Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association
> Subject: Re: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> 
> Having gone through  the packet wars of the late 80s and early 90s when a
> person could go most anywhere they wanted via nodes  and BBS links packet
> was fun  ran my own for many years a 4 stack node link in west central
> Florida then  one after one we lost the links and nodes to get  things
> done
> as the links disappeared the users did also.
>  the young hams today grew up on the Internet and faster speeds  and have
> no
> 
> interest in the most part in packet
>  if you notice even the use of the 2 meter repeaters is way down or almost
> none existent on some repeaters leaving them little more than  beacon
> boxes
> .
>   The good old days are gone and no one can bring them back  because most
> of
> 
> the guys have moved on .
>  sedan network  not sure it still works as planned and it was a emergency
> network for long range message movement .
>   I was one of the first to set up portable packet systems  for shelter
> use
> with a control op in attendance it was easy to get  someone who could type
> and  put the  shelters
> reports on the system to be sent and print out the incoming stuff allowing
> the  control op to  handle other things and even grab a nap, but alas the
> ARES/RACES guys feared they would miss a tid bit and  complained loudly in
> my experience  most county E.M. s act like they are for but  when the
> chips
> are down they do not listen  not all are this way  I was in south Florida
> after Andrew and we  were the only communication there was for  many days
> and we were needed .
>  It is better to be setting idle than over worked  and I do feel we should
> support the local county E..M. and be ready but   the network needs to be
> user friendly and  mesh together seamless so if  needed you can sent to
> another county a request for support  and the phone lines want get it
> done.
>  Nothing is wrong with using Internet  ports after Francis in 2005  I did
> not have cell service nor did my home phone line worked   but my dsl was
> up
> back up generator powering my computer  I was able to get messages to my
> partners  I would be up every day at a certain time  and message my family
> in 4 states we were OK .
>   I gave up my rf powered BBS when I became sick and had to convert the
> room
> 
> to a handicapped bedroom for me just had to have the room to  exist    but
> had that not happen I would still atleast have a  stack up on 2 meter and
> 220  wanted to put up a 6 meter link but never got that done time ran out
> for me.
>   so guys don't fuss make it work together  the different protocols can
> exist and in harmony with a little give and take on both sides  make it a
> state wide link and I for one will drag out my old pk88 and join in the
> racket to see how many contact of my old days I can find and maybe  even
> put
> 
> up a rf BBS back in operation or help someone do so in Sumter
>  73
>  John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edwin Crowell" <w5twr109 at gmail.com>
> To: "Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association"
> <fadca at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> 
> 
> > Hi Phil,  That's great.  Keep it up!  Good boy.  I'll back you up all
> > the way.  73, Ed
> >
> > On 10/23/07, Royce, Philip <proyce at alachuasheriff.org> wrote:
> >>  That would be correct, His version of end user in the first email
> >> indicated if we are going to advance the projects that we should
> provide
> >> internet to the masses and evidently that was not the case just to the
> >> ham community, at least we are on the same page on that one...lol..
> >>
> >>  But please understand my view on providing any radio service either
> >> our own personal enjoyment or as a service to our community.  We have
> >> seen in every facet of our hobby that to have a reliable system what
> >> ever it might be you have to have the right equipment, people to fix it
> >> install it ect., and the landscape to put it in.
> >>
> >>  When it comes to packet or any network you need more than one location
> >> to operate from which means you need towers, equipment, and possible
> >> rental fees or at least repairs and installations of antennas and
> >> feedline.
> >>
> >>  We enjoy packet for it's information and if possible the conferencing
> >> with our friends in other areas of the country if the system allows,
> >> unfortunately QSO1 is gone from this area.  But we are also here to
> >> provide a service to our community, it's easy to say we don't want to
> >> help
> >> "why should I help, they don't help me"  sorry I don't believe that,
> >> I've been providing comm. support since the early 80s.  If we are going
> >> to enhance our network we need to show the people we serve that it is
> >> worth their interest to support and invest in us and our systems that
> we
> >> develop.
> >> For years we tried to get the hospitals to have a packet network and
> >> they had no interest, they just wanted to have a person there to answer
> >> phones and have a 2meter radio. For years we tried to get emergency
> >> management to have aprs and packet in their EOC's they wanted no part
> of
> >> it.
> >> We finally have them understanding we have something to offer them,
> that
> >> will let us improve our network for us to have fun with and provide
> them
> >> a valuable resource if trouble hits the fan.
> >>
> >>  If I had my own 380ft tower I would have the same opinion probably,
> >> but the only way that GNV switch is going up is to use a county tower
> to
> >> do it, what does that mean, that means that I have to have something to
> >> offer them to allow the switch to be there.  The last time this switch
> >> was up here in Gainesville it was on the TV20 tower, why did it come
> >> down because someone wanted another VHF and UHF voice repeater on the
> >> tower and didn't care about packet.
> >>
> >>  We are not divided we just look at it in a different perspective, I
> >> look at it as I can't do it myself alone I'm going to sell it for what
> >> we can offer and hope someone has some resources for me to take
> >> advantage of.
> >>
> >>  For months I've tried to come up with equipment myself for this
> >> switch, I have the computer and programmed by Charlie, I have the radio
> >> and the tnc's finally on my own.
> >>  But finally we have an opportunity to have some investment into the
> >> system (NFL) because I can offer a means of communications to a group
> >> that needs it in an emergency, we are having a meeting next month about
> >> installing 7 communications packages in buildings and tower structures
> >> and presenting them with the high speed data and voice and packet/email
> >> from Gainesville to Jax. with a MOU to Marion county also.  There is no
> >> way that us alone could do this ourselves.  So please understand if you
> >> feel that I'm only out for myself it's not the case I and the packet
> >> users will enjoy the end result but at someone else's support.
> >>
> >>  I'm getting off this soapbox cause I really think when it comes down
> >> to it, it's not going to matter what anyone says it's will only matter
> >> what people do.
> >>
> >>  As a footnote since Dstar is going though a major evaluation of
> >> coordination and enduser do's and don't's, I have asked a higher
> >> authority he opinion about the highspeed data providability and I'll
> let
> >> you all know what we can and can't do in the future with Dstar, since
> it
> >> is going to be a hot topic coming soon.  See I could have done all this
> >> over Packet...GRIN.
> >>
> >> BTW Jerry I built a Ethernet UHF system before our 2.4 came out with
> old
> >> telemetry data radios EF Johnson that did my whole house for internet
> >> but that was before we had 8.1 data speeds on cable. And End User
> >> question, probably would not happen due to fact that there's not enough
> >> time in the day for it, someday maybe we could create a FBBS that had a
> >> search engine in it that selected only what we wanted and but when you
> >> have to LB < > 12345 to get what you wanted instead of "this is just an
> >> example"(S)radio parts or (S) radio parts (10212007)that's just my
> >> opinion lets not take it to another 10pages..lol
> >>
> >> 73 Phil
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> >> [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry DeLong
> >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:53 PM
> >> To: 'Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association'
> >> Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> >>
> >> Dave,
> >>
> >> I don't think anyone wants to help "EMCOMMS" I believe I used the term
> >> "end user" and Phil assume I was talking about PUBLIC access. The term
> >> "end user" should have been more defined in the context of HAM "end
> >> users".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> >>
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> >> [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> >> > On Behalf Of n4zkf
> >> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:00 PM
> >> > To: fadca at mailman.qth.net
> >> > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> >> >
> >> > I'm starting to think we have two different groups here. Some who
> want
> >> to
> >> > see a better "ham" radio network and some who want to see a better
> >> network
> >> > for "EMCOMMS".
> >> >
> >> > While I'm all for helping out in an emergency and have done so in
> many
> >> > disasters, I, just as you don't want to spend my weekends "working"
> as
> >> you
> >> > call it on a network for just the "general public". I don't want to
> >> help
> >> > build it just from EMCOMMS and Email. I guess we all have our
> alterior
> >> > motives.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Dave
> >> >
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> >> [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net]
> >> > On Behalf Of kd4yal at tampabay.rr.com
> >> > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:26 AM
> >> > To: Royce, Philip
> >> > Cc: Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association
> >> > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> >> >
> >> > Phil,
> >> >
> >> > I still like to read packet bulletins there is still good information
> >> that
> >> > you
> >> > sometimes can't find anywhere else. As a user what would attract you
> >> to
> >> > using a  bulletins board again?
> >> >
> >> > I guess this was Charlie point.
> >> >
> >> > **sigh**
> >> >
> >> > When you talk about harden sites I believe this would prove to be
> very
> >> > difficult  from a security stand point. From what I have seen in
> there
> >> > area
> >> > there aren't enough Network Professional willing to put forth the
> time
> >> and
> >> > most don't understand the concept.
> >> >
> >> > Most bbs can send email if they are setup to do so I even had axMail
> >> setup
> >> > for Fpac to send email at one point. All flavors of xNos have native
> >> > support
> >> > for SMTP and POP3.
> >> >
> >> > Actually Linksys has caught on and rather then creating a unhappy
> >> customer
> >> > base
> >> > they left the WRT54GL units on the market so people could use them
> for
> >> > there
> >> > wireless project. Any way there are other platforms out there just as
> >> > cheap and
> >> > easily modified.
> >> >
> >> > As far as your comment about the Amprnet I am not sure what to say
> but
> >> > these guys were way a head of there time. Most HAMS even as of today
> >> > can't seem to understand the concept that why we are using protocols
> >> like
> >> > Rose to build our networks.
> >> >
> >> > I think maybe you are a little confuse to what would be consider
> >> > commercial use
> >> > and the use of for a fellow HAMS. For the second time no one would be
> >> > selling or
> >> > paying for a service. **END USERS** would be HAMs not the general
> >> public.
> >> >
> >> > The Amprnet has evolved and matured further then any experimental HAM
> >> > radio
> >> > network in existences today. FACT
> >> >
> >> > I would really like to where you found the word **PUBLIC** in
> anything
> >> I
> >> > said.
> >> >
> >> > During a time of emergency I could see helping emergency responder
> >> make
> >> > there
> >> > way to the Internet since this is the medium uses for business today
> >> but
> >> > **NOT**
> >> > the general public.
> >> >
> >> > Nice spin...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ---- "Royce wrote:> A quote from AMPR.
> >> >
> >> > AMPRNet is not intended to be, and should not be used as, a
> substitute
> >> > for buying access to the Internet from a local Internet Service
> >> > Provider. It is, at this point in its evolution, an experimental
> >> network
> >> > which should not be relied upon to provide consistent or dependable
> >> > communications. As with ham radio itself, it is a hobbyist adventure.
> >> >
> >> > "quote"( We are at the point now were we could be supplying end users
> >> > with free Internet access and free email,
> >> >
> >> > digital voice traffic with just the cost of their own equipment. This
> >> > type of technology will bring back
> >> >
> >> > users but these type of network require TCPIP. The equipment needs
> >> could
> >> > be purchased pretty cheap.")
> >> >
> >> > It would be great to do, but there are lots of other ways to provide
> >> the
> >> > public with internet, and I'm not spending my weekends working on
> >> > projects for the general public, I'm doing it for the ham community
> >> and
> >> > emergency services.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> >> > [mailto:fadca-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry DeLong
> >> > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:24 AM
> >> > To: 'Florida Amateur Digital Communication Association'
> >> > Subject: RE: [FADCA] HAMS using Internet
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hello, Phil
> >> >
> >> > Nice comments...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Firewalls are easy to build and can easily control traffic the entire
> >> > internet is constructed this way.
> >> >
> >> > Did you forget we are HAMS.
> >> >
> >> > I have 2 Linksys router converted to Linux that were purchased for
> 70$
> >> > each
> >> > and could have the range 6-10 mile @ 54-10 mb depending on the site
> >> they
> >> > were setup at. They can also be modified for two serial ports for
> >> legacy
> >> > TNC. All they need is a weather proof case and antenna.
> >> >
> >> > This has already been done by other HAMS radio networks.
> >> >
> >> > One of my Linksys router is already running Xnet...
> >> >
> >> > If no one is paying for a service how is this consider commercial?
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps you have not heard of the Amprnet? www.ampr.org
> >> >
> >> > You are correct IPIP tunneling or VPN connection is a good option for
> >> > site
> >> > to site work as this is the way it is done on the Amprnet.
> >> >
> >> > Shame on us for forgetting our roots the answer isn't always to go
> buy
> >> > the
> >> > new Kenwood or in this case Dstar.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Best regards, Jerry, KD4YAL