[Elecraft] K4 delivery status

Fred Jensen k6dgw at foothill.net
Tue Aug 17 18:01:09 EDT 2021 

OK, apologies for starting this thread.  All I was looking for were 
answers to sort of related questions:

If I were to order a K4 now, will it work into my K3-RRC1258 remote to 
the K3-RRC1258 at W7RN?

A good friend answered directly.  I have no more questions. Certainly 
did not want to stir up the Flex vs Elecraft pot.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 8/16/2021 9:04 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>
> I'm not missing any point other than your continued deflection with 
> that Flex wall of text, and I certainly know that software development 
> takes time and people.  My only point has been that Elecraft is 
> shipping K4's without the software that they at least implied already 
> existed (they demo'd it!) and that obviously other other (probably 
> more important) efforts are taking precedence over its completion.  
> Why do you keep acting like I have said anything else??
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 8/16/2021 8:33 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
>> David:
>>
>>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 10:27 PM, David Gilbert <ab7echo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I'm not particularly interested in Flex's history, but that 
>>> seems to be a pretty long winded agreement that there probably isn't 
>>> any timetable for the remote capability that Elecraft appeared to 
>>> demonstrate in their video upon the release of the K4.
>>>
>>> As an aside, last I checked software development wasn't dependent 
>>> upon piece part supply.  Priorities are priorities, though ... I'm 
>>> just saying that the remote capability doesn't appear to be very 
>>> high on the list.  That's obviously Elecraft's choice, but for me 
>>> the remote capability was probably the one key attribute that might 
>>> convince me to switch from my K3 to the K4.  For everything else 
>>> that actually matters to me in the way of raw performance, the K3 
>>> seems as good or better.
>> Perhaps you’re missing my point.  Yes, hardware production is 
>> dependent upon parts supply, but the focus of development is software 
>> both in terms of user interface as well as the ‘internals’ of 
>> managing “Software" Defined Radio systems is significantly greater 
>> than prior Elecraft products.  It took Flex nearly five years after 
>> initial product announcement to provide Wide Area Network remote 
>> capability for their Flex-6xxxx products.  When it came out in 2017, 
>> it changed the entire nature of Flex products.  Remote operation is 
>> what is driving Flex users today.
>>
>> Elecraft presumably understands this, but clearly there are other 
>> software development concerns they’re currently focusing upon.  And 
>> how do you balance the need to get hardware product out-the-door (to 
>> generate revenue) versus software development that has been 
>> implicitly promised but is presumably initially paid for with a 
>> hardware purchase?  The priority is presumably to get product 
>> out-the-door…  And as good as job as Elecraft did on K4 software 
>> development before product release, there will be ‘bugs’ found by 
>> users as the user base expands.  Thus, there is also a continuing 
>> need for “software maintenance.”
>>
>> I have no idea what ‘software licensing’ model Elecraft may pursue 
>> down the road.  Will ‘remote operation’ be a separate product to be 
>> purchased when it is available?  The version of SmartSDR that users 
>> obtained when they received their Flex-6xxx eventually was replaced 
>> by an ‘enhanced’ version that offers new features with a new version 
>> number that requires payment for a new license if the user wants the 
>> enhanced capabilities.  The license is associated with the radio, not 
>> the user.  Thus, I went from v1.xxx when the Flex was delivered in 
>> November 2013 and later paid for v2.xxx when "Smartlink” (Remote 
>> operation) was introduced in 2017.  Later, Flex offered “Multiflex” 
>> under SmartSDR v3.xxx that I elected not to purchase and my current 
>> SmartSDR v2.7.6 supports my current needs.  “Versions” reflect new 
>> capabilities (e.g. “Smartlink” and “Multiflex”) while bug fixes 
>> within a version are provided as part of the existing license.  This 
>> pricing model is common in the computer industry and it does provide 
>> a revenue stream to help support continued software development.  In 
>> addition, I paid for SmartSDR for Mac and SmartSDR for iOS licenses 
>> developed outside of Flex because they offer features I was willing 
>> to pay for with the developer promising future updates without 
>> additional fees.
>>
>> Thus, don’t overlook the significance of software development both in 
>> terms of development time and expense.  I presume that the software 
>> development effort for the K4 is significantly greater than prior 
>> Elecraft products requiring special skills (such as FPGA programming) 
>> and more extensive development efforts than in the past that takes 
>> time and resources to successfully implement.
>>
>> FWIW,
>>
>> Barry, WD4ASW/1
>>
>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dave   AB7E
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/16/2021 5:55 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
>>>> David:
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 7:28 PM, David Gilbert <ab7echo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently not.  I recently asked on this list if new K4 users 
>>>>> could tell us how well the K4 worked for remote operations.  The 
>>>>> only replies I got said that Elecraft had not yet written a 
>>>>> release version of the software for remote operation of the K4, 
>>>>> and as best they could tell from the responses they had gotten 
>>>>> from Elecraft there was no timetable for doing so.  Nobody from 
>>>>> Elecraft bothered to answer my query, so they are probably correct.
>>>> We all know that Elecraft is facing huge challenges on all fronts 
>>>> in terms of product manufacturing and digging through the orders 
>>>> they’ve received.
>>>>
>>>> Elecraft is not alone in terms of announcing a vision and then 
>>>> expending the resources ($$$, technical development, production, 
>>>> distribution) to make it happen. Elecraft’s new vision is not easy 
>>>> to implement and will take time (years) to fulfill what has been 
>>>> announced.  The challenge is to provide a roadmap and then 
>>>> calibrate everyone’s expectations regarding when these new 
>>>> capabilities will be available to users.  Like FlexRadio, Elecraft 
>>>> is building a new product line (“ecosystem”) that is fundamentally 
>>>> changing their product offereings and thus the user experience.
>>>>
>>>> While I’m not suggesting that Elecraft’s ability to fulfill its 
>>>> roadmap mirrors the customer experience at FlexRadio, making the 
>>>> comparison at least provides a potential for context and 
>>>> recognizing that the technical and financial challenges can be 
>>>> significant.  In addition, events of the past 18 months has 
>>>> certainly impacted Elecraft more than Flex in terms of new product 
>>>> releases given what California has been going through not only with 
>>>> Covid-19 but fires and power outages along with subcontractor 
>>>> issues, parts issues, etc.
>>>>
>>>> So with these thoughts in mind, I can recite my personal experience 
>>>> as an ‘early adopter’ of the Flex-6000 series and the timeframes of 
>>>> what was promised and when it was delivered as I can recall offhand.
>>>>
>>>> 1.  Hamvention 2012 was when Flex announced the Flex-6700 
>>>> transceiver and the evolution into a ‘client-server’ typography 
>>>> between radio (server) and connection device (PC, other user 
>>>> interface) as the client.  What caught my eye was the promise of 
>>>> remote operation via an ethernet connection that would greatly 
>>>> simplify the setup and operation of a remote station.  Given that 
>>>> my potential operating would be 90% of the time via remote 
>>>> operation, this was a big deal to me.   I ordered one in August 
>>>> 2012 as their ‘early purchase discount’ was expiring.
>>>>
>>>> 2.  My Flex-6700 was delivered in November 2013 with SmarSDR v1.x 
>>>> that was essentially useless for my purposes.  No provision for 
>>>> remote operation and only ‘basic functions.’ No promises were made 
>>>> as to when remote operation would be possible.
>>>>
>>>> 3.  In August 2014 I purchased the K3-KPA500-KAT500-K3/I0 mini with 
>>>> remote rig system from Elecraft at the Huntsville Hamfest.  10 days 
>>>> later product was delivered to me in Westborough, MA and I 
>>>> subsequently set it up at my station in Folkston, GA over labor day 
>>>> weekend.  I ordered the equipment because at this point I had no 
>>>> idea when Flex would have developed their remote capability and 
>>>> none of us were getting any younger.
>>>>
>>>> Setup was simple and ‘it simply worked’.  Nothing fancy versus the 
>>>> potential of the Flex, but it performed as advertised.  Most 
>>>> importantly, i had a reliable remote station capability.
>>>>
>>>> 4. In May 2017 Flex announced SmartSDR v2.x with “Smartlink” that 
>>>> finally provided the wide area network remote capability that I was 
>>>> looking for.  Note that this was FIVE YEARS after initial product 
>>>> announcement.  By then SmartSDR had evolved to a level of maturity 
>>>> where the capabilities were meeting expectations….
>>>>
>>>> 5.  In February 2018 Flex announced the PGXL amplifier along with 
>>>> an external tuner capable of SO2R capability that would handle the 
>>>> output of the PGXL.  The PGXL was shown at the Orlando Hamcation 
>>>> but the tuner at this point was ‘vapor’ as it had not yet been 
>>>> designed.  I ordered mine the day that Hamcation opened.
>>>>
>>>> 6.  I received my PGXL in May 2018 following Hamvention. Neither 
>>>> SmartSDR nor the Maestro were updated to accommodate the PGXL, so I 
>>>> was forced to use the PGXL using the PGXL utility running on a PC 
>>>> in the shack when operating remotely.  More significantly, no tuner 
>>>> was announced so at this point I could use the amplifier with my 
>>>> tribander. This meant that I was dependent upon the Elecraft 
>>>> equipment for bands other than 10-15-20.
>>>>
>>>> 7.  The amplifier was returned to Flex in December 2018 due to 
>>>> warranty recall (issue with six meters).
>>>>
>>>> 8.  I don’t remember when, but PGXL integration was incorporated 
>>>> into both Maestro and the various SmartSDR iterations, making it 
>>>> much easier to manage the PGXL remotely.
>>>>
>>>> 9.  The TGXL (Tuner Genius) was announced in March 2021. I received 
>>>> my Tuner Genius in June 2021, 3+ years after I ordered the PGXL and 
>>>> tuner package.
>>>>
>>>> 10. With the release of TGXL, a TGXL utility was also released 
>>>> providing ‘basic’ remote operability to manage the Tuner.  No word 
>>>> as of today as to when the TGXL will be integrated into SmartSDR or 
>>>> Maestro.  It does integrate with Antenna Genius if you have the 
>>>> SO2R version of TGXL.
>>>>
>>>> In fairness to Flex, a number of cool capabilities were developed 
>>>> by Flex and third parties over the past four years including 
>>>> SmartSDR for Mac, DogPark SDR, SmartSDR for iOS (iPhone and iPad) 
>>>> and various utilities.  Flex has actively encouraged developers to 
>>>> use their API to create new features/capabilities for the Flex-6xxx 
>>>> ‘ecosystem.'
>>>>
>>>> In essence, it has taken Flex and others nine years to develop a 
>>>> Flex-6xxxx ‘ecosystem’ of very tremendous capability that covers 
>>>> the entire operator HF experience. With transverters, this 
>>>> experience can be extended to VHF and above.  The system has 
>>>> matured to the point where the equipment “works” and fulfills their 
>>>> vision of remote capability.  As third parties develop new features 
>>>> (including Node Red systems), the potential is endless.
>>>>
>>>> I personally see Elecraft’s K4 as having similar potential. I don’t 
>>>> doubt for a moment the dedication and vision that Eric and Wayne 
>>>> possess in their efforts to bring the K4 ‘ecosystem’ to fruition.  
>>>> Hopefully, their vision will be completed more expeditiously than 
>>>> Flex, but I also suspect that they’re following a multi-year 
>>>> evolutionary process given their current challenges…  I also 
>>>> suspect that there will be the potential for third parties to 
>>>> develop products that will enhance the K4 experience over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FWIW,
>>>>
>>>> Barry Baines, WD4ASW/1
>>>> Keller, TX
>>>> (Currently in Roslindale, MA)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Dave   AB7E
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/16/2021 2:22 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>>>> 1.  I run W7RN remotely with the RemoteRig RRC-1258 setup and my 
>>>>>> K3.  If I replace my K3 with a K4, and Tom does _not_ do likewise 
>>>>>> at RN, will my remote setup still work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>>>>>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>>>>>> Washoe County
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