[Elecraft] OFFLIST: Re: K4 delivery status
Barry Baines
bbaines at mac.com
Tue Aug 17 01:24:35 EDT 2021
Hi Dave:
> On Aug 17, 2021, at 12:04 AM, David Gilbert <ab7echo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not missing any point other than your continued deflection with that Flex wall of text, and I certainly know that software development takes time and people. My only point has been that Elecraft is shipping K4's without the software that they at least implied already existed (they demo'd it!) and that obviously other other (probably more important) efforts are taking precedence over its completion. Why do you keep acting like I have said anything else??
Elecraft may have demoed an ‘alpha’ version of remote software but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is ready for prime time. I have no idea where they stand on their development work or where it stands in their priority list. I suspect that they’re dealing with more critical priorities, like it or not.
I referenced the “Flex experience” because it seems to me that it a reflection of how product development has changed in the amateur radio industry. No longer do manufacturers come out with a HF rig every few years with the latest features (that can’t be upgraded later). Instead, they’re developing a new ‘ecosystem’ that presumably will last for a number of years where new features are introduced as ’software updates’ rather than as hardware enhancements in the guise of a new model. This approach suggests that the product will ‘mature’ over time and that it may take a number of years to reach what was initially ‘promised’ under the vision that was announced when the product introduction was made. It may also be the case that capabilities not announced upon product announcement may be introduced such as ‘MultiFlex” where two operators are sharing the same transceiver at the same time (but only one is transmitting at a given instant).
SDR development in particular is not trivial requiring specialized skills and where resources may be constrained that will lengthen development time. Furthermore, under the adage of “the perfect is the enemy of the good’, hardware will be released with software embedded that may not provide even ‘basic’ features that clearly should be included. Flex did this with SmartSDR v1.xx. They sold the transceiver as being ‘remotable’ but it took them five years to provide that capability. The delay was likely due to higher priorities (to provide the features that everyone, not just remote operators, needed) and more complex challenges (such as providing appropriate security to prevent unauthorized use of an amateur transceiver that can only transmit under the control of an authorized licensee). Demoing remote operation is not the same as a general release where security features must be built-in to ensure station security.
I suspect that the development efforts under Flex are a reflection of the challenges now faced by Elecraft recognizing that there are significant differences in equipment architecture but both push the SDR envelope to provide the richest experience as perceived by each manufacturer. I’m not predicting that it will take Elecraft five years to provide a remote operation option. I am suggesting that it may be ‘awhile’ as it isn’t clear what they expect to provide. It may be app(s) that runs on Windows or Mac or iOS or Android or it may also include a hardware equivalent (K4/i0) or they will provide an API that developers can use to access the K4 feature set. I’m not following the K4 ’story’ close enough to know exactly what their current thinking is on this matter. I do intend to attend the Huntsville Hamfest this coming weekend, so perhaps I’ll have a better understanding of their current situation after visiting the Elecraft booth.
Lastly, the benefit of being an ‘early adopter’ is that the user benefits from the development efforts to date. Clearly, the K4 is a significant upgrade over the K3 as currently demonstrated The downside is potential frustration as desired features are not available immediately upon initial product shipment and it could be ’sometime’ before the full potential of a product is reached. I considered my Flex-6700 to be a ‘paperweight’ for five years because it was not remote-able while others who were using their Flex transceivers locally were very satisfied with what was being provided at the time. I purchased the K3 system in the interim to give me some level of remote capability. Now that the Flex system has matured to the point where I can fully utilize it as a remote station, the K3 is now serving as a ‘backup’ system which is very important given that I’m usually over 1200 miles from the ham site for months at a time. I have a Flex Maestro sitting next to my K3/I0-mini at two locations which combined with how I have remote power management setup allows full control of my ham station.
I’ve had situations where the Flex is not available (usually due to a configuration mistake on my part that isn’t discovered until after I leave the site or a hardware failure such as a bad LAN switch or failed UPS) but the Elecraft is fully operable because it is not physically dependent upon the same LAN switch or UPS network backup. “Redundancy” is a good thing when using a remote station.
73,
Barry, WD4ASW/1
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 8/16/2021 8:33 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
>> David:
>>
>>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 10:27 PM, David Gilbert <ab7echo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I'm not particularly interested in Flex's history, but that seems to be a pretty long winded agreement that there probably isn't any timetable for the remote capability that Elecraft appeared to demonstrate in their video upon the release of the K4.
>>>
>>> As an aside, last I checked software development wasn't dependent upon piece part supply. Priorities are priorities, though ... I'm just saying that the remote capability doesn't appear to be very high on the list. That's obviously Elecraft's choice, but for me the remote capability was probably the one key attribute that might convince me to switch from my K3 to the K4. For everything else that actually matters to me in the way of raw performance, the K3 seems as good or better.
>> Perhaps you’re missing my point. Yes, hardware production is dependent upon parts supply, but the focus of development is software both in terms of user interface as well as the ‘internals’ of managing “Software" Defined Radio systems is significantly greater than prior Elecraft products. It took Flex nearly five years after initial product announcement to provide Wide Area Network remote capability for their Flex-6xxxx products. When it came out in 2017, it changed the entire nature of Flex products. Remote operation is what is driving Flex users today.
>>
>> Elecraft presumably understands this, but clearly there are other software development concerns they’re currently focusing upon. And how do you balance the need to get hardware product out-the-door (to generate revenue) versus software development that has been implicitly promised but is presumably initially paid for with a hardware purchase? The priority is presumably to get product out-the-door… And as good as job as Elecraft did on K4 software development before product release, there will be ‘bugs’ found by users as the user base expands. Thus, there is also a continuing need for “software maintenance.”
>>
>> I have no idea what ‘software licensing’ model Elecraft may pursue down the road. Will ‘remote operation’ be a separate product to be purchased when it is available? The version of SmartSDR that users obtained when they received their Flex-6xxx eventually was replaced by an ‘enhanced’ version that offers new features with a new version number that requires payment for a new license if the user wants the enhanced capabilities. The license is associated with the radio, not the user. Thus, I went from v1.xxx when the Flex was delivered in November 2013 and later paid for v2.xxx when "Smartlink” (Remote operation) was introduced in 2017. Later, Flex offered “Multiflex” under SmartSDR v3.xxx that I elected not to purchase and my current SmartSDR v2.7.6 supports my current needs. “Versions” reflect new capabilities (e.g. “Smartlink” and “Multiflex”) while bug fixes within a version are provided as part of the existing license. This pricing model is common in the computer industry and it does provide a revenue stream to help support continued software development. In addition, I paid for SmartSDR for Mac and SmartSDR for iOS licenses developed outside of Flex because they offer features I was willing to pay for with the developer promising future updates without additional fees.
>>
>> Thus, don’t overlook the significance of software development both in terms of development time and expense. I presume that the software development effort for the K4 is significantly greater than prior Elecraft products requiring special skills (such as FPGA programming) and more extensive development efforts than in the past that takes time and resources to successfully implement.
>>
>> FWIW,
>>
>> Barry, WD4ASW/1
>>
>>
>>> 73,
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/16/2021 5:55 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
>>>> David:
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 7:28 PM, David Gilbert <ab7echo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently not. I recently asked on this list if new K4 users could tell us how well the K4 worked for remote operations. The only replies I got said that Elecraft had not yet written a release version of the software for remote operation of the K4, and as best they could tell from the responses they had gotten from Elecraft there was no timetable for doing so. Nobody from Elecraft bothered to answer my query, so they are probably correct.
>>>> We all know that Elecraft is facing huge challenges on all fronts in terms of product manufacturing and digging through the orders they’ve received.
>>>>
>>>> Elecraft is not alone in terms of announcing a vision and then expending the resources ($$$, technical development, production, distribution) to make it happen. Elecraft’s new vision is not easy to implement and will take time (years) to fulfill what has been announced. The challenge is to provide a roadmap and then calibrate everyone’s expectations regarding when these new capabilities will be available to users. Like FlexRadio, Elecraft is building a new product line (“ecosystem”) that is fundamentally changing their product offereings and thus the user experience.
>>>>
>>>> While I’m not suggesting that Elecraft’s ability to fulfill its roadmap mirrors the customer experience at FlexRadio, making the comparison at least provides a potential for context and recognizing that the technical and financial challenges can be significant. In addition, events of the past 18 months has certainly impacted Elecraft more than Flex in terms of new product releases given what California has been going through not only with Covid-19 but fires and power outages along with subcontractor issues, parts issues, etc.
>>>>
>>>> So with these thoughts in mind, I can recite my personal experience as an ‘early adopter’ of the Flex-6000 series and the timeframes of what was promised and when it was delivered as I can recall offhand.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Hamvention 2012 was when Flex announced the Flex-6700 transceiver and the evolution into a ‘client-server’ typography between radio (server) and connection device (PC, other user interface) as the client. What caught my eye was the promise of remote operation via an ethernet connection that would greatly simplify the setup and operation of a remote station. Given that my potential operating would be 90% of the time via remote operation, this was a big deal to me. I ordered one in August 2012 as their ‘early purchase discount’ was expiring.
>>>>
>>>> 2. My Flex-6700 was delivered in November 2013 with SmarSDR v1.x that was essentially useless for my purposes. No provision for remote operation and only ‘basic functions.’ No promises were made as to when remote operation would be possible.
>>>>
>>>> 3. In August 2014 I purchased the K3-KPA500-KAT500-K3/I0 mini with remote rig system from Elecraft at the Huntsville Hamfest. 10 days later product was delivered to me in Westborough, MA and I subsequently set it up at my station in Folkston, GA over labor day weekend. I ordered the equipment because at this point I had no idea when Flex would have developed their remote capability and none of us were getting any younger.
>>>>
>>>> Setup was simple and ‘it simply worked’. Nothing fancy versus the potential of the Flex, but it performed as advertised. Most importantly, i had a reliable remote station capability.
>>>>
>>>> 4. In May 2017 Flex announced SmartSDR v2.x with “Smartlink” that finally provided the wide area network remote capability that I was looking for. Note that this was FIVE YEARS after initial product announcement. By then SmartSDR had evolved to a level of maturity where the capabilities were meeting expectations….
>>>>
>>>> 5. In February 2018 Flex announced the PGXL amplifier along with an external tuner capable of SO2R capability that would handle the output of the PGXL. The PGXL was shown at the Orlando Hamcation but the tuner at this point was ‘vapor’ as it had not yet been designed. I ordered mine the day that Hamcation opened.
>>>>
>>>> 6. I received my PGXL in May 2018 following Hamvention. Neither SmartSDR nor the Maestro were updated to accommodate the PGXL, so I was forced to use the PGXL using the PGXL utility running on a PC in the shack when operating remotely. More significantly, no tuner was announced so at this point I could use the amplifier with my tribander. This meant that I was dependent upon the Elecraft equipment for bands other than 10-15-20.
>>>>
>>>> 7. The amplifier was returned to Flex in December 2018 due to warranty recall (issue with six meters).
>>>>
>>>> 8. I don’t remember when, but PGXL integration was incorporated into both Maestro and the various SmartSDR iterations, making it much easier to manage the PGXL remotely.
>>>>
>>>> 9. The TGXL (Tuner Genius) was announced in March 2021. I received my Tuner Genius in June 2021, 3+ years after I ordered the PGXL and tuner package.
>>>>
>>>> 10. With the release of TGXL, a TGXL utility was also released providing ‘basic’ remote operability to manage the Tuner. No word as of today as to when the TGXL will be integrated into SmartSDR or Maestro. It does integrate with Antenna Genius if you have the SO2R version of TGXL.
>>>>
>>>> In fairness to Flex, a number of cool capabilities were developed by Flex and third parties over the past four years including SmartSDR for Mac, DogPark SDR, SmartSDR for iOS (iPhone and iPad) and various utilities. Flex has actively encouraged developers to use their API to create new features/capabilities for the Flex-6xxx ‘ecosystem.'
>>>>
>>>> In essence, it has taken Flex and others nine years to develop a Flex-6xxxx ‘ecosystem’ of very tremendous capability that covers the entire operator HF experience. With transverters, this experience can be extended to VHF and above. The system has matured to the point where the equipment “works” and fulfills their vision of remote capability. As third parties develop new features (including Node Red systems), the potential is endless.
>>>>
>>>> I personally see Elecraft’s K4 as having similar potential. I don’t doubt for a moment the dedication and vision that Eric and Wayne possess in their efforts to bring the K4 ‘ecosystem’ to fruition. Hopefully, their vision will be completed more expeditiously than Flex, but I also suspect that they’re following a multi-year evolutionary process given their current challenges… I also suspect that there will be the potential for third parties to develop products that will enhance the K4 experience over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FWIW,
>>>>
>>>> Barry Baines, WD4ASW/1
>>>> Keller, TX
>>>> (Currently in Roslindale, MA)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Dave AB7E
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/16/2021 2:22 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>>>> 1. I run W7RN remotely with the RemoteRig RRC-1258 setup and my K3. If I replace my K3 with a K4, and Tom does _not_ do likewise at RN, will my remote setup still work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>>>>>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>>>>>> Washoe County
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