[Elecraft] Feature Request: improved internal keyer and CW PTT behavior

Tue Feb 14 20:19:14 EST 2017

Hi Fred, 

I never operate QSK, my amp relays aren't fast enough and they 
make too much noise. Like many K3 users, I always use either 
CW VOX or CW PTT. 

The K3 works fine in CW VOX mode, except for the odd behavior 
that after PTT is released the VOX delay continues to keep the 
transmitter active until the delay set by the Delay pot times out. 

Its a different story in CW PTT mode (not QSK). PTT is very 
responsive (the transmitter always releases immediately after PTT 
is released regardless of delay pot setting). The problem is that if 
you use the internal K3 keyer in CW PTT mode, the radio actually 
transmits in QSK mode risking damage to slow amplifier relays. 

Like many K3 users, I solved the internal keyer problem by using a 
K1EL Winkeyer connected to the K3 Key and PTT inputs. That 
solution works exactly the way the K3 should work if the logic for 
the K3 internal keyer worked as it should. 

73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Fred Jensen" <k6dgw at foothill.net> 
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 12:33:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feature Request: improved internal keyer and CW PTT behavior 

I'm really confused now [a not uncommon state for me]. I have "mature" 
K3 S/N 642. The VOX delay is adjustable by holding the SPEED/MIC knob. 
There is a separate delay for CW and SSB. I normally run QSK, but I 
just tried semi-breakin now and the two modes have two different 
adjustable delays. I use a Winkey-3. I used to use the internal K3 
keyer, and I don't remember any problems then either. Before I got the 
KPA500, my amp wouldn't do full QSK so I ran semi-breakin all the time. 

The subject of the original email doesn't note the Elecraft product, if 
it's not a K3 [or K3S I guess] disregard this. 

73, 

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW 
Sparks NV DM09dn 
Washoe County 

On 2/14/2017 3:57 PM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: 
> Hi Wayne, 
> 
> 
> I made an error in my original email. PTT releases immediately 
> in CW PTT mode regardless of VOX delay. 
> 
> 
> Its only in VOX mode that PTT release is delayed by VOX delay, 
> which makes no logical sense to me. 
> 
> 
> tks 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Wayne Burdick" <n6kr at elecraft.com> 
> To: donovanf at starpower.net 
> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <elecraft at mailman.qth.net> 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 6:04:09 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feature Request: improved internal keyer and CW PTT behavior 
> 
> Is a workaround to simply set the QSK delay to 0 in CW mode even when using PTT? 
> 
> 
> On Feb 14, 2017, at 7:39 AM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: 
> 
>> Hi Brian, 
>> 
>> 
>> The PTT problem I described is that the K3 adds a long delay (the 
>> VOX delay, much longer than 5-10 milliseconds) after the external 
>> PTT is dropped. I can't explain any rationale for adding VOX delay 
>> after PTT is dropped except for a firmware design error. VOX 
>> delay is applied to PTT in every operating mode, even in SSB 
>> VOX mode. 
>> 
>> 
>> Fortunately VOX delay is not applied when using computer keying 
>> via the USB port. 
>> 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Frank 
>> W3LPL 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> 
>> From: "briancom" <alsopb at comcast.net> 
>> To: donovanf at starpower.net 
>> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <elecraft at mailman.qth.net> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 2:21:48 PM 
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feature Request: improved internal keyer and CW PTT behavior 
>> 
>> Frank, 
>> Pardon my ignorance on this issue if the below is off target. 
>> The asynchronous nature of an external ptt appears to be a problem. 
>> Suppose the K3 is in the middle of a long 100 watt dash and the external ptt signal is dropped. It clearly takes some time for the RF tail to drop to zero. One would seem to need to add some delay time for this to happen. To avoid clicks one wants a shaped tail. I dont see how the K3 can immediately go to RX. 
>> How fast a turn off and go to RX action do you want? Is the normal 5 ms tail fast enough? 
>> 
>> Of course if Winkey logic is programmed within the K3 the asynchronous problem goes away. 
>> 
>> The adjustable TXDELAY issue where the CW gets QSD with a setting more than 8 ms is an issue that has existed from day one. People started complaining about it on day 2. Elecraft has know about it for a long, long time. From what I am able to glean about the problem is that it may be really difficult to fix. Apparently the timing has to be fixed in many places in the code to produce good CW at all values of TXDELAY. If the fix were a simple one, it would have been fixed years ago. 
>> 73 de Brian K3KO 
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2017, at 12:52 AM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: 
>>> 
>>> Okay, lets take Eric's lead and open an interesting thread directly 
>>> related to an excellent Elecraft product. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For years many of us have suffered with the odd behavior of the K3 
>>> in CW PTT mode. There are at least two inexplicble aspects of K3 
>>> CW PTT behavior that have forced many of us to use external 
>>> Winkeyers rather than the poorly designed internal K3 keyer logic 
>>> when the K3 is in CW PTT mode. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For CW contesters, its necessary to operate the K3 in PTT mode 
>>> to avoid unwanted VOX delay. But for some strange reason the 
>>> K3 always applies VOX delay after external PTT is unasserted. 
>>> I can think of no logical reason why VOX delay should be applied 
>>> at the end of the external PTT input when the K3 is PTT mode or 
>>> any other mode. When PTT is unasserted, the K3 should always 
>>> immediately return to receive mode, no exceptions. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> When using the internal K3 keyer when in PTT mode, for some 
>>> inexplicable reason the K3 behaves like its in QSK mode. The 
>>> only way to avoid this is to use VOX rather than PTT mode or 
>>> to use a foot switch when in PTT mode. Both alternatives 
>>> are unacceptable. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The band aid solution many contesters use with excellent results 
>>> is to avoid using the internal K3 keyer and to use an external 
>>> K1EL Winkeyer that generates both a key output and a PTT 
>>> signal generated according to well designed Winkeyer CW PTT 
>>> logic. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Why can't the K3 implement logic similar to the Winkeyer to 
>>> generate the equivalent of "Winkeyer PTT" when using the K3 
>>> internal keyer when the K3 is in PTT mode? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 73 
>>> Frank 
>>> W3LPL 
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