[Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

Tue Apr 18 22:13:14 EDT 2017

I have a deceased HAM buddy who espoused grounding to the nth degree.  His recommendation, especially for his on premise cell phone towers, was to have as much metallic in the ground to detract large lightening hits to bypass radios and go to ground.  K9KGM ( google his stuff) was his call and he not only believed but lived through major lightening hits to his towers, and counselled any of those he consulting with.  You need adequate metal in the ground to dissipate the effects of a lightning strike.  This doesn't guarantee against damage but certainly will help avoid the effect of a strike.  Now the problem is:  I have never been hit, therefore I am doing the right thing. :-)  Or, I have insurance, so what does it matter?  Thus the issues are answered?

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 2:26 AM
To: Rick Dettinger <k7mw78 at gmail.com>
Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

You also have many thousands of ham radio towers in northwest 7 land with either Ufer grounds or embedded tower bases.  You tell me how many of them have exploded during lightning strikes, and how that justifies the admonition to "never encase a ground rod in a tower base".

I once did an extensive internet search trying to find documented examples of concrete structures that had exploded from the inside out due to internal grounded conductors.  I couldn't find a single one.  
Maybe you can find one, and if so I'd like to see the link.  I did find several instances of damage to concrete structures from lightning hits, but all of them had external damage from simple lightning strikes.  Most other damage was attributed to the fact that there wasn't any grounding at all ... i.e., an ungrounded structure on top of a concrete base.

 From a theoretical point of view, I could picture a discharge causing more damage from insufficient metal in the concrete rather than too much.  Spread the current ... minimize the heat buildup. If you want to argue that a single ground rod in a concrete base is a poor idea, OK ... 
I can buy that.  But these other blanket statements are garbage science.

Dave   AB7E

On 4/17/2017 10:45 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
> A Uber ground was developed for dry areas during WW2.  In damp areas, the concrete can do just what happened in the concrete pole test.
>
> Per Wikipedia article:
> "A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation.”
>
> We have plenty of damp soil in northwest 7 land.
>
> Best,
> Rick
>   
>> On Apr 17, 2017, at 9:57 PM, David Gilbert <xdavid at cis-broadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to help perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill informed.  Anyone that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is essentially multiple ground rods encased in concrete is indeed ill informed.  And anyone who doesn't understand the mechanisms and considerations behind a Ufer ground shouldn't be making contributions to threads like this.
>>
>> Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps surfacing year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically this forum ... without the least bit of thoughtful consideration behind it.  I'm tired of our hobby, supposedly a technically based one, being subject to definitively stated exhortations that are so demonstrably wrong.
>>
>> Dave  AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
>>> I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I worked for was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  There was considerable concern by the line workers that the poles might be more dangerous to work on than wooden poles, in the event of an accident.  To check this, we installed one of the poles in a sub station, and wrapped a 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor around the pole.  When the station breaker was closed, the pole exploded dramatically, with a large fireball.  The results might have something to do with moisture content in the concrete.  The results convinced us to only use the poles on transmission lines that wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with distribution lines.  Of course, the power levels are much higher in lightening strikes.  The conduction paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in a tower base to Earth.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Rick  K7MW
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Doug Renwick <ve5ra at sasktel.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground 
>>>> rods partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
>>>>
>>>> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to 
>>>> be re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.
>>>>
>>>> 73!
>>>>
>>>> Ken - K0PP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
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