[Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Wes Stewart]

I don't know whether I would call that "extensive" damage but whatever...

I have my own photos of me standing next to this anchor, but since I can't send 
attachments, here is a link: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVLY-TV_mast#/media/File:KVLYPylon.jpeg

I didn't see any extra grounding conductors.  BTW, my GPS said this was 1/4 mile 
from the base of the tower :-)

I'm not saying that extra grounding isn't required or is a bad idea, just that 
concrete encased steel isn't a bad idea.

Wes  N7WS

On 4/18/2017 8:01 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
> Here is an article that described a Ufer ground failure that prompted the installation of an extensive external grounding system on a 1900’ BC tower.
>
> http://www.radioworld.com/headlines/0045/proper-grounding-and-bonding-are-crucial/338510
>
> The Broadcast industry doesn’t seem to put their faith in Uber grounding.
>
> Rick
>   
>> On Apr 18, 2017, at 12:25 AM, David Gilbert <xdavid at cis-broadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> You also have many thousands of ham radio towers in northwest 7 land with either Ufer grounds or embedded tower bases.  You tell me how many of them have exploded during lightning strikes, and how that justifies the admonition to "never encase a ground rod in a tower base".
>>
>> I once did an extensive internet search trying to find documented examples of concrete structures that had exploded from the inside out due to internal grounded conductors.  I couldn't find a single one.  Maybe you can find one, and if so I'd like to see the link.  I did find several instances of damage to concrete structures from lightning hits, but all of them had external damage from simple lightning strikes.  Most other damage was attributed to the fact that there wasn't any grounding at all ... i.e., an ungrounded structure on top of a concrete base.
>>
>>  From a theoretical point of view, I could picture a discharge causing more damage from insufficient metal in the concrete rather than too much.  Spread the current ... minimize the heat buildup. If you want to argue that a single ground rod in a concrete base is a poor idea, OK ... I can buy that.  But these other blanket statements are garbage science.
>>
>> Dave   AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/17/2017 10:45 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
>>> A Uber ground was developed for dry areas during WW2.  In damp areas, the concrete can do just what happened in the concrete pole test.
>>>
>>> Per Wikipedia article:
>>> "A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation.”
>>>
>>> We have plenty of damp soil in northwest 7 land.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Rick
>>>   
>>>> On Apr 17, 2017, at 9:57 PM, David Gilbert <xdavid at cis-broadband.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to help perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill informed.  Anyone that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is essentially multiple ground rods encased in concrete is indeed ill informed.  And anyone who doesn't understand the mechanisms and considerations behind a Ufer ground shouldn't be making contributions to threads like this.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps surfacing year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically this forum ... without the least bit of thoughtful consideration behind it.  I'm tired of our hobby, supposedly a technically based one, being subject to definitively stated exhortations that are so demonstrably wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Dave  AB7E
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
>>>>> I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I worked for was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  There was considerable concern by the line workers that the poles might be more dangerous to work on than wooden poles, in the event of an accident.  To check this, we installed one of the poles in a sub station, and wrapped a 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor around the pole.  When the station breaker was closed, the pole exploded dramatically, with a large fireball.  The results might have something to do with moisture content in the concrete.  The results convinced us to only use the poles on transmission lines that wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with distribution lines.  Of course, the power levels are much higher in lightening strikes.  The conduction paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in a tower base to Earth.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Rick  K7MW
>>>>>
>>>>>