[Elecraft] Sloping Terrain vs Feedline Losses

[Phil Wheeler]

Dave,

Aside from the issue at hand, and perhaps sans the 
"misguided", I'm certain this "our hobby has 
several generations of very misguided members who 
have squandered millions of dollars." is true ;-)

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/13/16 5:48 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>
> I've played around with VOACAP a lot in the 
> past.  Possibly you want to argue with it's 
> validity, but I can tell you that the percentage 
> of time it shows signals optimally arriving at 
> 45 degrees is much less than the percentage of 
> time they arrive closer to 10 degrees ... 
> certainly for any kind of DX work and most of 
> the time for domestic work here in the U.S.  
> That depends upon the band, of course, and also 
> the time of the opening (optimum angles are 
> lower at openings and closings versus 
> mid-opening), but in general the best TOA's area 
> lot lower than most hams assume.
>
> If low takeoff angles weren't generally 
> desirable our hobby has several generations of 
> very misguided members who have squandered 
> millions of dollars.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> On 7/13/2016 5:02 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> Jim, I've looked at your stuff in the past.
>>
>> But, "improvement" is in the eye of the 
>> beholder.  The ionosphere determines the 
>> optimum TOA, not the antenna. Taking heroic 
>> measures to get the max TOA down to 10 degrees 
>> (a near impossibility over dirt) when the 
>> signals are arriving at 45 degrees is hardly 
>> optimum.
>>
>> Anecdotal evidence is mostly worthless but for 
>> what it's worth, I have 48 entities worked on 
>> 160 meters from here in the desert using no 
>> more than 500 watts into an inverted-V, apex at 
>> 45' ends at 6'.  Everyone "knows" that this 
>> can't possibly work because it radiates 
>> straight up.  (Except that it doesn't)
>>
>> Wes
>>
>> On 7/13/2016 3:07 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> On Wed,7/13/2016 12:03 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>>>> Ok, but I'm unclear about what "improves 
>>>> radiation pattern" means. 
>>>
>>> Wes,
>>>
>>> Take a look at the links I posted to my NEC 
>>> studies. There can be no doubt as to the 
>>> meaning of "improves radiation pattern."
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW -- I do NOT agree that elevated radials 
>>> have much to do with establishing the take-off 
>>> angle. AND, more to the point, I view take-off 
>>> angle as absolutely the wrong way to look at 
>>> the vertical pattern of an antenna. A FAR 
>>> better approach is the one I used in those 
>>> antenna planning applications notes, for which 
>>> I posted links a few hours ago.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC