[Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

Wed Apr 27 08:26:28 EDT 2016

On 4/26/2016 11:48 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:
 >     You touch on the real problem 14-16 bits of sampling vice having
 > more bits in the sample. It's not specifically the direct sampling
 > architecture.

The real problem is not enough bits.  DSR proponents continue to ignore
the sensitivity vs. overload trade-off.  They tout their "top of the
list" IMD performance and "multiple slice receiver" capabilities while
completely hiding the fact that those items can only be accomplished by
reducing sensitivity some 30 dB compared to a conventional superhet
receiver in the presence of strong signals.

I have nothing against direct sampling receivers and I'm intrigued by
the performance/features balance Icom made - to the extent that I'm
likely to replace the IC-706mkIIg I use as an Icom proxy in my CAT test
bench with a 7300 once the "new" price moderates.

> But, there is another issue that has not been discussed in anything
> I've read so far, ultimate filter rejection. Flex, Kenwood, and
> Elecraft have filtering that runs in the 100 db region, or a little
> better.

Top of the line rigs with dual (distributed) filtering may reach the
100 dB region.  However, that is not the case in all rigs.  The IC-7300
is competitive with rigs such as the Yaesu FTdx3000 (80 dB), Icom
IC-7600 (78 dB), Icom 706 mkIIg (78dB) or K2 (80 dB) and not all that
far from the TS-590 (92 dB) or TS-990 (90 dB).  Remember, most of the
crystal filters flatten out around -80 to-90 dB (with tighter filters
having even less ultimate rejection and - see the K3/Inrad curves) -
circuit layout often causes leakage above those levels in many rigs.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

On 4/26/2016 11:48 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:
> Joe,
>     I agree with you basically. I think it's just the manor in which you
> state the problem.
>
>     You touch on the real problem 14-16 bits of sampling vice having
> more bits in the sample. It's not specifically the direct sampling
> architecture. I think the radio companies just can't get 24 bit ADCs
> fast enough to do direct sampling at commodity pricing which would allow
> direct sampling with out the baggage. If I can do 24 bit sampling and
> high and low pass filtering, I can simplify receiver design AND have a
> an acceptable dynamic range. Multiple instances of DSP processing of the
> 24 bit samples will allow as many virtual receivers, slices, as
> processor power will allow. My guess is we are on the verge of getting
> to where we would like to be.
>
>     Flex is using a 16 bit ADC and I'm not sure what the 7300 is using,
> but I infer it, too, is 16 bit. I do believe that the Elecraft
> architectures are all based on 24 bit sampling. The Elecraft designs
> should be tolerant to serious environmental abuse short of a local
> thunderstorm.
>
>     Our comments reflect a rigorous tech discussion. But, there is
> another issue that has not been discussed in anything I've read so far,
> ultimate filter rejection. Flex, Kenwood, and Elecraft have filtering
> that runs in the 100 db region, or a little better. I saw that the
> IC-7300 is about 20 db worse. What that means if you are a CW operator,
> serious or otherwise, and there is a pile up on a DX station, a contest,
> or just a really busy weekend, you may have problems from strong
> stations not too far away while you are trying to work an S1-3 station.
> SSB operators have other problems like splatter and no amount of superb
> design will fix that.
>
>     I'm pleased there is a vigorous discussion on the new radios. It
> helps push the designers and the technology.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists at subich.com>
> To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
> Sent: 4/26/2016 10:10:32 PM an
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>
>> On 4/26/2016 8:08 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:
>>> Everybody is ignoring W4TV's 800lb Gorilla, ADC overload.
>>
>> I can't take credit for that ... the warning comes from some of the
>> best RF designers in the world.  Direct sampling receivers are very
>> good in controlled situations.  Unfortunately, those who are used to
>> analog superhetrodyne receivers do not recognize the symptoms of ADC
>> overload/overflow in many cases.
>>
>> The overflow can show up as an occasional click or pop if the number
>> and strength of signals continues to increase conditions go down hill
>> very rapidly.  The best 16 bit ADC based SDRs can and do show very
>> significant overload issues when run without effective front end
>> bandpass filtering in high RF environments (160 meters near AM BC
>> stations, 40 meters in Europe, 160 meters in New England during a
>> contest, etc.).
>>
>> One can apply filtering (which Icom seems to have done in the 7300),
>> apply attenuation (which Flex seems to have done in the 6000 series)
>> or both.  Filtering limits the number and width of "slice receivers"
>> while attenuation kills weak signal performance.
>>
>> I find Icom's implementation interesting in that they are using the
>> technology as a single band, single channel receiver (they could have
>> added Dual RX within the same band at practically no hardware cost) -
>> an application where, with tight bandpass filtering, direct sampling
>> may be ready to compete as indicated by the fact that Sherwood's tests
>> place the 7300's above some "good" conventional rigs like the Ten-Tec
>> Eagle, Kenwood TS-590SG and TS-990 in MDS, LO Phase noise and IMD DR.
>>
>> However, for the ultimate multi-channel receiver, ADC technology is
>> still 4 to 6 bits short as witnessed by the need for 12 to 20 dB of
>> attenuation in the Flex 6000 or the 0 to 30 dB electronically stepped
>> attenuators in some of the other products like the Anan, Hermes, etc.
>> Sherwood's results hint at this when comparing the MDS with the
>> preamp on and preamp off ... even with its preamp on the Flex 6700
>> MDS is the same as the K3S with *no preamp*!
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>    ... Joe, W4TV
>>
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