[Elecraft] Split not available

[Bob Naumann]

Well Joe, it seems you're attaching a lot of emotion to this issue, but I
think you still miss the point.

I apologize if I'm not making this issue clear enough to you, but I'm afraid
you're attacking when you should be supporting. I therefore must conclude
that I am just not able to communicate with you clearly and focus my
comments on the underlying issue due to some limitation in my vocabulary and
I apologize for my lack of communication skills.

Oh, one thing I would make clear is that I am not "too damn lazy". If I was,
I probably wouldn't bother trying to help you understand the issue that
you're criticizing in error.

In addition, all of your critiques of my suggestion are incorrect. Sorry.
Nothing I am suggesting will change any current function or force anything
"arbitrary" or "unrelated" to the commands we're discussing. If you think
so, please provide support for your incorrect claims. I'm willing to learn.

One last try:

I'm going to ask you to describe a scenario where an operator who desires to
go to SPLIT operation actually wants to get the SPL/NA response from his K3.
I'm hoping that you will agree that the answer is that there is no scenario
where an operator wants to see SPL/NA. I don't - and this is the entire
point. 

Today, if his VFO A and VFO B are not already on the same band, this is what
he gets (SPL/NA). This is not what he wants. How does that fit into your
ergonomic rules? 

How does this occur? As I have described, it happens all the time. Every
time there is a major DXpedition, I am reminded of how frustrating it is to
get the SPL/NA message over, and over again. Most DXpeditions operate SPLIT
- the DX station transmits on one frequency and everyone else (except the
frequency cops) transmits somewhere else. Recently, I was trying to work the
VP8ORK operation on 20m CW. They were transmitting on 14024 and listening up
the band a few kHz. I was operating SPLIT with VFO A on 14024 and VFO B on
14030 or so. (I probably got the SPL/NA warning when I went to go SPLIT
initially and went through all 6 steps as I described previously but that's
not important now). After calling for a while, I saw that they were spotted
on 40m on 7024. So, I popped VFO A over to 7024 and heard them calling and I
Pressed and Held the SPLIT button (*STEP 1*) and guess what? I get the
stupid SPL/NA message because VFO B is still on 14030. So what do I have to
do? I have to do steps 2 through 6 - AGAIN!

* Step 2 - Recognize the SPL/NA message in the VFOB display
* Step 3 - Tap VFO A ->  VFO B
* Step 4 - Press and Hold Split (Again)
* Step 5 - Set the VFO B Frequency
* Step 6 - Work the DX Station

Doesn't all that seem like a lot to do when all I wanted was to go SPLIT on
40m?

Wouldn't this be better? (Again, *ONLY* if my VFOs are not already on the
same band). 

* Step 1 - Press and Hold SPLIT which also sets VFO A ->  VFO B (Please,
please recognize that the VFO A-> VFO B should happen ONLY if the VFOs are
not already on the same band!!!!)
* Step 2 - Set the VFO B Frequency
* Step 3 - Work the DX Station

It is this scenario, which I imagine was repeated ad infinitum around the
world by thousands of K3 users in VP8ORK pileups when they change bands and
in error Press and Hold Split before they tap VFO A -> VFO B.

Can't you see that there is no other logical action in this scenario?

If the operator has already tapped VFO A to VFO B and then Pressed and Held
SPLIT - nothing should change and the VFOs should not be synced!

Again, if the operator is Pressing and Holding the SPLIT button and his VFOs
are on different bands, this is what he wants.  If he did not want this,
then he would not have Pressed and Held the SPLIT button - would he? What am
I missing?

None of what I have described will alter your use of VFO B as "scratchpad".
If the VFOs are configured such that they would permit SPLIT operation now
(being on the same mode and band), there's nothing in what I'm suggesting
that would alter that behavior so I am perplexed as to what you are so
concerned about.

I'm talking about making the K3 easier to use and reducing the number of
steps required to change to SPLIT when your two VFOs are not already on the
same band. Isn't this a simple enough concept?

I detailed out what one must do with the confines of the current logic in
the 6 steps I described in my previous email. If I have erred, please tell
me what I have described in those steps that is in error.

None of what I am suggesting makes anything "arbitrary" or does anything
"unrelated". I am not asking for any change in functionality as you are
evidently objecting to - aside from never seeing the stupid SPL/NA message.

73,

Bob W5OV






-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:lists at subich.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 3:24 PM
To: Bob Naumann
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Split not available


> While there may be some who on some rare occasions need VHF
> Cross-mode AND Split at the same time, this is not a valid
> justification for the radio to behave in the illogical way it does
> now.

The VFOs do not behave illogically.  They behave as one would expect
by holding their band and mode information until it is specifically
changed.

> And, no, the VFOs should not be tied to each other all the time so
 > changing the VFO IND parameter is not the answer to this.

If you expect the VFOs to be on the same band turning VFO IND OFF
is the solution to that.  Otherwise, leave them alone until the
operator specifically changes them.  For the radio to *ARBITRARILY*
change VFO frequency and mode when the operator makes another
*UNRELATED* change in operating conditions is an absolute violation
of proper ergonomic design.  The first rule is do not cause an
unexpected change.

> There is also no need to sync the VFOs when turning SPLIT OFF and
> that is not being suggested.

But turning split off and then turning it back on will sync the
VFOs ... it does not matter if they are snynced when split is
turned off or turned on the result is the same.  The Off/On cycle
results in VFOs on the same frequency ... and the lids transmitting
on top of the DX station.

> The current logic forces one to have to perform 3 completely
> unnecessary steps to go to Split operation when VFOB is not on the
> same band/mode as VFOA.<<< This happens all the time!!!

SO WHAT!!!  If you want both VFOs on the same band use *VFO IND OFF*.
If you want a command that syncs the VFOs, use a macro to create a
Quick Split option.  *DON'T* destroy current functionality because
you are too damn lazy to tap A>B twice.

> The 3 extra steps, that the current logic forces are simply a waste
> of  time.
> If it worked the way I am hopeful it will someday, it would eliminate

No they are not.  They assure the principles of "do not do anything
that the operator has not specifically commanded" and "do not cause
*unexpected* operation.  *DON'T* take away current capabilities just
because some operators are lazy.  Your "sync" VFOS when turning on
split would exponentially increase the number of lids transmitting
on top of the DX station ... and would eliminate the ability for
anyone to use VFO B as a scratchpad memory all because you're too
lazy to manually sync VFOs.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

On 2/12/2011 11:19 AM, Bob Naumann wrote:
> While there may be some who on some rare occasions need VHF Cross-mode AND
> Split at the same time, this is not a valid justification for the radio to
> behave in the illogical way it does now.
>
> And, no, the VFOs should not be tied to each other all the time so
changing
> the VFO IND parameter is not the answer to this. There is also no need to
> sync the VFOs when turning SPLIT OFF and that is not being suggested.
>
> The current logic forces one to have to perform 3 completely unnecessary
> steps to go to Split operation when VFOB is not on the same band/mode as
> VFOA.<<<  This happens all the time!!!
>
> Think about this: Is there any reason one would press and hold Split aside
> from wanting the radio to be placed into SPLIT mode? I cannot imagine any
> circumstance where you would deliberately press and hold SPLIT and not
want
> to go SPLIT.
>
> Once again:  ***if VFOB is not on the same band/mode as VFOA***, and you
> press and hold SPLIT [Step 1] (which clearly means you want to go SPLIT)
> this should cause a VFOA->  VFOB and then turn on SPLIT all in one step.
>
> The way it works now, is that when you try to do this, the radio will not
do
> anything but the VFOB display shows SPL/NA and you have to recognize that
> this has happened [Step 2].
>
> As it is now, when this happens, one has to then TAP VFOA->VFOB (STEP 3]
to
> make the VFOs the same, then Press and HOLD SPLIT (AGAIN) [Step 4] to go
> SPLIT, and then set VFOB's frequency [Step 5]. You can then work the DX
> [Step 6].
>
> Again, ***IF and only IF VFOB is not on the same band/mode as VFOA***,
here
> are the 6 steps currently forced by this bad logic:
>
> Step 1 - Press and Hold SPLIT
> Step 2 - Recognize the SPL/NA message in the VFOB display
> Step 3 - Tap VFO A ->  VFO B
> Step 4 - Press and Hold Split (Again)
> Step 5 - Set the VFO B Frequency
> Step 6 - Work the DX Station
>
> There is no other way to do this ***if VFOB is not on the same band/mode
as
> VFOA***.
>
> The 3 extra steps, that the current logic forces are simply a waste of
time.
> If it worked the way I am hopeful it will someday, it would eliminate the
> need to do Steps 2, 3, and 4.
>
> Again: ***IF and only IF VFOB is not on the same band/mode as VFOA*** - it
> would be like this:
>
> Step 1 - Press and Hold SPLIT which also sets VFO A ->  VFO B
> Step 2 - Set the VFO B Frequency
> Step 3 - Work the DX Station
>
> Much more efficient!
>
> Again, when one presses and holds SPLIT, there is nothing else one could
be
> trying to do but to go SPLIT - if the VFOs must be on the same band to
allow
> that, then make them the same and turn on SPLIT, then dial up your VFOB
> Frequency and work the DX!
>
> 73,
>
> Bob W5OV
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:lists at subich.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 8:10 AM
> To: Bob Naumann; Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Split not available
>
>
> If VFO B is not on the same band, you are correct.  However, there
> are plenty of times that one might want to use cross mode split -
> it is quite common in VHF operation.
>
> You can avoid the "VFO on the wrong band" issue simply by setting
> CONFIG:VFO IND = No.  Therefore again, making the VFOs synchronize
> VFOs as the default operation when turning split on/off is a bad
> idea.  Quite simply, I regularly use VFO B as a quick memory and
> have a PF key for B ->  A to take advantage of that.  Your "Make
> VFO B = VFO A" when turning spit on/off would completely destroy
> that capability.
>
> Anyone who wants VFOs to synchronize when turning split on or off
> can easily write their own "quick split" macro (tap, tap, hold).
> There are several examples of such a macro in the archives of this
> list and probably an example in the Help files for the K3 Utility.
>
> 73,
>
>      ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2/12/2011 4:36 AM, Bob Naumann wrote:
>> Joe,
>>
>> Again, ***if VFOB is not on the same band/mode as VFOA***, and you press
> and
>> hold SPLIT (which clearly means you want to go SPLIT) this should cause a
>> VFOA->   VFOB and then turn on SPLIT.
>>
>> Please explain how this is a bad idea and under what circumstances this
>> would cause a problem.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bob W5OV
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:lists at subich.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 10:15 PM
>> To: w5ov at w5ov.com
>> Cc: Shel Radin KF0UR; elecraft at mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Split not available
>>
>>
>>> If the "Split" function were to include a A->B like I suggested
>>> recently, this would not be an issue.
>>    >
>>    >   Some condemned this suggestion as a "bad" idea, but I doubt that
they
>>    >   operate much or they would know what a pain in the neck this is.
>>
>> No, I operate More than enough to know how much of a pain it would
>> be if the VFOs were synchronized every time one turned split off -
>> for example to move one VFO to a different pile-up.  Only to have
>> lost the frequency saved in VFO B when returning to an original
>> pile-up.
>>
>> Synchronizing VFOs every time the split status is changed is *still*
>> a terrible idea but if you want to do that, you can use the K3 Macro
>> capability to build your own "quick split" macro without causing
>> inconvenience to others.
>>
>>    >   If VFO B is already on the same band and mode as VFO A, then just
> turn
>>    >   Split on.
>>    >
>>    >   I find that the second condition NEVER occurs.
>>
>> I find the second condition is almost always the case and if it isn't
>> two quick presses of the Split button is all it takes.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>       ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 2/11/2011 11:30 AM, w5ov at w5ov.com wrote:
>>> If the "Split" function were to include a A->B like I suggested
recently,
>>> this would not be an issue.
>>>
>>> Some condemned this suggestion as a "bad" idea, but I doubt that they
>>> operate much or they would know what a pain in the neck this is.
>>>
>>> The logic should be:
>>> When Holding Split: if VFO B is not already on the same band and mode,
>>> then it should do a VFO A ->    VFO B, and then Split should be turned
on.
>>>
>>> If VFO B is already on the same band and mode as VFO A, then just turn
>>> Split on.
>>>
>>> I find that the second condition NEVER occurs.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Bob W5OV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly.  I'm a new K3 owner (~1 week) and had the same issue a few
days
>>>> into
>>>> ownership.    VFO B was in a mode other than DATA A.
>>>>
>>>> To prevent it from happening again, I added a double tap of A->B to my
>> "go
>>>> to RTTY"  macro, which copies the mode of VFO A to VFO B, so both VFOs
>> are
>>>> always the proper mode.
>>>>
>>>> GL&    73,
>>>>
>>>> Shel  KF0UR
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>
>>
>
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Re-Split-not-available-tp6012850p601619
>> 3.html
>>>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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>
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