[Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior

Thu Jul 15 15:01:33 EDT 2010

I think you miss my point entirely.  I never said that you needed to 
know the gain characteristics of your antenna ... only that since you 
don't (none of us do since we don't know what the arrival angle is) any 
S-meter reading is only a relative indication of received signal 
strength anyway.  You're all upset that the S-meter on the K3 (as with 
just about every other rig on the market) shifts as you change RF Gain, 
but in all reality it is a meaningless consideration anyway.  "Relative" 
is all you get no matter what you think the K3 should be able to do, or 
would be able to do if it had a lab quality RF voltmeter.

I'm not trying to impress anyone or be overly technical, but I will try 
to put it in simpler terms for you.  Let's say that you have two 
antennas that both function on 40m but physically they don't look at all 
alike.  Neither you nor the guy on the other end has any clue what the 
gain, pattern, and efficiency is for either of them.  Let's also say 
that you have a calibrated RF microvoltmeter (complete with handy chart 
to convert to S-units if desired) and you check his signal on both 
antennas.  As expected, you get different readings from the two 
antennas.  What do you give the other guy for his report?  You have two 
different voltmeter readings and since you don't know the parameters of 
either antenna, neither reading has any correlation at all to the 
strength of the arriving signal.  Even your own two readings are not the 
same.  Your only recourse is to give the guy a subjective report 
relative to other signals on the band at the time.  So how is that any 
different than what you have right now?

You stated, "I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to 
tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure 
that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it 
should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it 
to with an S9."

Yet, when I pointed out the even greater influence of the antenna on 
"the actual signal level of a station" you're talking to, you reply that 
it's silly and irrelevant.

There's something wrong with that picture.

73,
Dave   AB7E

On 7/15/2010 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote:
> What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be 
> so over technical about EVERYTHING.  I'm certain that sometimes being 
> TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self.  This is an S meter, 
> it's used by some to give an S report.  Part of an RST.. This isn't a 
> scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in 
> XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you 
> have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 
> S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. 
> They have an RS(T) of 54(9).
>
> Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard" 
> for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my 
> goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his 
> azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, 
> and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, 
> try to be technical to impress people on the reflector.  We all know 
> that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of 
> things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE 
> with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, 
> not on how to read an S meter.
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700
> > From: xdavid at cis-broadband.com
> > To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> >
> >
> > Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss
> > of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth
> > relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately
> > tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your
> > property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in
> > that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding
> > yourself if you think differently.
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave AB7E
> >
> >
> > On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> > > I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And 
> your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre 
> is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're 
> not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate 
> that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted.
> > >
> > > I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me 
> the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that 
> Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should 
> be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to 
> with an S9.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've 
> done it too..
> > >
> > > But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying 
> you don't know what to tell the guy.
> > >
> > > If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what 
> you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone 
> that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address 
> he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he 
> guides the people asking in the wrong direction.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning 
> down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. 
> Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering 
> my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING 
> going on with your rig.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check 
> your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else 
> like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that 
> you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up 
> causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the 
> things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at 
> least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar 
> rig's S meter.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400
> > >> From: w3fpr at embarqmail.com
> > >> To: n9ef at comcast.net
> > >> CC: Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
> > >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> > >>
> > >> Robert,
> > >>
> > >> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
> > >> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the 
> S-meter,
> > >> but it is just good operating sense.
> > >>
> > > just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
> > >
> > >> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy 
> from a
> > >> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy 
> with
> > >> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
> > >> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.
> > >>
> > >
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