[CW] High speed sending...
Pedro J. Santa
[email protected]
Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:21:50 -0100
Your comparison is not valid unless you use an operator who knows how to
operate iambic paddles. Obviously, you haven't used such a resource in
coming up with your comparison, which is contrary to reality ( the excessive
number of strokes you have listed for simple letters which are easily
attainable with just a touch shows that the operator who counted the strokes
for you doesn't have the slightest notion as to how to operate iambic
paddles...Excluding release motions in the right hand column but including
release motions in the left hand column is not a clean trick either. No
wonder!!!!!)
Pedro KP3X
p.s. In view of the foregoing, neither the topic nor your theories are
worthy of any further attention on my part.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Hyder -N4NT-" <[email protected]>
To: "Pedro J. Santa" <[email protected]>; "Larry L. Ravlin"
<[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [CW] High speed sending...
> I have considered the number of motions more fairly, as you suggested.
> Remember that with the dual-lever, the fingers and thumb must operate
> independently whereas with the bug and single-lever key the fingers and
> thumb operate in unison, as does the key's contact structure. Because of
> this, when using the bug one need not make an independent motion to
release
> a contact when the opposite contact is activated. In addition, the nature
> of my hand is that my fingers and thumb are much more adept at flexion
> (pushing a contact) than they are at extension (releasing a contact).
Here
> is the result of my comparison of the full alphabet:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> DOT = push dot
> dot = release dot
> DASH = push dash
> dash = release dash
>
> Iambic motions Bug or single-lever motions
>
> A DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> B DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> C DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT DASH DOT dot (5)
> D DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> E DOT dot (2) DOT dot (2)
> F DOT DASH dash dot (4) DOT DASH DOT dot (4)
> G DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> H DOT dot (2) DOT dot (2)
> I DOT dot (2) DOT dot (2)
> J DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> K DASH DOT dot dash (4) DASH DOT DASH dash (4)
> L DOT DASH dash dot (4) DOT DASH DOT dot (4)
> M DASH dash (2) DASH dash (2)
> N DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> O DASH dash (2) DASH dash (2)
> P DOT DASH dot DOT dash dot (6) DOT DASH DOT dot (4)
> Q DASH DOT dot dash (4) DASH DOT DASH dash (4)
> R DOT DASH dash dot (4) DOT DASH DOT dot (4)
> S DOT dot (2) DOT dot (2)
> T DASH dash (2) DASH dash (2)
> U DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (4)
> V DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (4)
> W DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> X DASH DOT dash DASH dot dash (6) DASH DOT DASH dash (4)
> Y DASH DOT dot dash (4) DASH DOT DASH dash (4)
> Z DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
>
> 1 DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> 2 DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> 3 DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> 4 DOT DASH dot dash (4) DOT DASH dash (3)
> 5 DOT dot (2) DOT dot (2)
> 6 DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> 7 DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> 8 DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> 9 DASH DOT dash dot (4) DASH DOT dot (3)
> 0 DASH dash (2) DASH dash (2)
>
> The following require fewer motions with Iambic Keying: C
>
> The following require fewer motions with non-iambic keying:
> A, B, D, E, G, J, N, P, W, X, Z, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9
>
> The following require the same number of motions with either:
> F, H, I, K, L, M, O, Q, R, S, T, U, V, Y, 5, 0
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you have been following this thread, then you know that the discussion
> began when Andrew VE1EX made the following statement:
> "Hello: I am having trouble sending much faster than about 25 wpm, I can
> copy
> about 30wpm and am working on increasing that. I learned on a straight
key
> and after six years I got a paddle, that was hard, but can now use both
> quite well. Any advice?"
>
> My response to the fellow was precisely this:
> "My suggestion is that if you are not using a single-lever paddle, you
give
> it a try."
>
> That opened a floodgate of people who disagreed with my suggestion, said
> that iambic keying was better, more efficient, etc., said that I was
stupid
> and even 'bizarre.' I do not believe iambic keying is either better or
more
> efficient and I said so. That caused a further flood.
>
> People can send code by whatever method they choose and it doesn't matter
to
> me. I have used all the methods, but I had extreme trouble sending with
the
> iambic method. After only a short time sending, I would begin to make
more
> and more errors. There seemed to be nothing I could do to reduce them --
> slowing the keyer didn't help, nor did speeding it up. Months of practice
> failed to help and I actually seemed to get worse with the iambic method
the
> longer I practiced. So I do take issue with those who push iambic as
being
> better -- for many of us it just isn't. People who buttress their
argument
> that iambic is more efficient are just trying to convince others to agree
> with them. My effort at counting motions was not designed to convince
> anyone to use a particular method, but to counter the specious argument
> about efficiency to bring the choice back to a level playing field so
people
> would know that if they were having trouble one way they could try
another.
>
> What were you trying to accomplish with your message quoted below?
>
> 73, Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pedro J. Santa" <[email protected]>
> To: "Larry L. Ravlin" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [CW] High speed sending...
>
>
> NOW that you jumped, I HAD to jump again. Well, well, comparing "bugs"
> against Iambics with claims of parity in "motions" is not honest. First, I
> want to make clear that I love bugs; I have about 40 different
Vibroplexes,
> plus some other semiautomatics, try to use them whenever there's another
bug
> operator at the other end, enjoy then enormously, and agree
wholeheartedly
> that they are a wonderful invention. But please let's not insist on that
> nonsense of counting strokes in an effort to compare bugs (and single
lever
> keys as well) against dual lever iambic paddles with a keyer, when the
> latter are operated as they should be and, man, that's not very difficult
if
> you've already mastered the Code.
>
> Even though this penchant for counting motions and strokes misses the mark
> as to what is efficient and comfortable operation, selecting those letters
> you have chosen in your effort to make a comparison using such an
inapposite
> benchmark is misleading--not to talk about the suggestion that only bug
> operators rest their wrists on the table. In any event, just consider
> letters such as C, J, K, M, O, P, Q, R, W, Z and you have to concede
that
> the number of strokes and effort with a iambic paddle are significantly
> reduced. Not to talk about most of the numbers, commas and other signs.
And
> even the other letters, such as those you have selected, are with iambics
> simply easier to the contact and lighter on the force required than occurs
> with bugs. Iambic operation is the only one that allows you, if you want
to
> learn, to attain that close, intimate, almost imperceptible spacing that
> paddles permit, with the "simultaneous" fingering that only
> iambics/keyers permit. Just call "CQ" with a bug or single lever and
> count--if you wish to continue with such a counting exercise-- and then
call
> "CQ" and count with a Iambic paddle, properly used--if you want to
continue
> counting.
>
> Oh, well, well, this is really a "no brainer" and I'm amazed so much
energy
> has been spent on the subject. Let's all support our beloved CW from our
> stations with all kinds of keys we want to use and let's just abandon
these
> futile diatribes--and more so when some of the claims that are so
forcefully
> made are so utterly unsupportable.
>
> 73 Pedro KP3X..
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry L. Ravlin" <>
> To: "Mike Hyder -N4NT-" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "cw"
> <>; "John/K4WJ" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [CW] High speed sending...
>
>
> > I just HAD to jump in. I use a Bug (a wonderful invention if I do say
so
> > myself) An 'A' is three motions. my wrist is resting on the table and
I
> > swing to the rt for the dit and swing to the left for the dash and then
to
> > the rt to release there is no seperate motion to release the dit. Like
> wise
> > a letter libe 'B' is three motions, I swing lt for the dah and swing rt
> for
> > the dits and then lt to release. ad infitium.
> > To ea his own, I like the bugs they look cool on my desk. I learned cw
on
> a
> > bug and now into my 60's i'm not abt to change.
> >
> > Larry L. Ravlin AKA "Laurence the Magnificent"
> > [email protected]
> > Walterville, Or.
> > Ham Operator Extra class AA7LR @ 20WPM
> > 'V' Tail Bonanza Pilot
> > Delta Wing Hang Glider Pilot
> > SCR 1475
> > SCS 422
> > IPSC
> > HighPower Rifle "Where Accuracy Counts"
> > Certified NAUI Diver
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John/K4WJ <[email protected]>
> > To: Mike Hyder -N4NT- <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; cw
> > <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [CW] High speed sending...
> >
> >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > How do you count three activities for a single lever paddle and four
for
> a
> > > dual lever paddle? You are missing a very important event on the
single
> > > lever paddle that must be counted. See below:
> > >
> > > At 10:56 PM 8/6/02 -0400, Mike Hyder -N4NT- wrote:
> > >
> > > >Letter Iambic keyer motions Single
> > levermotions
> > > >
> > > >A (push) dot, (push) dash, release dot release dash (4) dot,
dash,
> > > >release dash (3)
> > >
> > > A push dot, release dot, push dash, release dash (4) dot,
> > release
> > > dot, dash, release dash (4)
> > >
> > > If you don't release the pressure from the thumb which is applied to
the
> > > single lever paddle to create the dot, your thumb and your finger will
> be
> > > working against each other when you go to create the dash.
> > >
> > > Jan Ditzian, KX2A, pointed this out to you back on Tuesday, May 2,
2000,
> > in
> > > a message to you on the TenTec reflector.
> > >
> > > When counting the activities to create the letter A with a SINGLE
LEVER
> > > paddle, why are you NOT counting the release of the dot as an
activity?
> > (It
> > > surely must be done in order to move the paddle over to the dash
side.)
> > >
> > > When you use a dual lever paddle with an iambic keyer you must release
> the
> > > dot before you create the dash or else you will send the letter R.
Your
> > > example above for a dual lever paddle/iambic keyer is incorrect, but I
> > will
> > > overlook it, since I know you are aware of what I just explained about
> > > releasing the dot before creating the dash.
> > >
> > > I'm really interested in reading your answer to my question.
> > >
> > > 73..de John/K4WJ
> > >
> > > >C dash, dot release dash release dot (4) dash, dot, dash,
dot,
> > > >release (5)
> > > >K dash, dot, release dot, release dash (4) dash, dot, dash,
> > release
> > > >(4)
> > > >N dash, dot, release dash release dot (4) dash, dot, release
(3)
> > > >R dot, dash, release dash, release dot (4) dot, dash, dot,
> release
> > (4)
> > > >AR dot, dash, release dash release dot (4) dot, dash, dot, dash,
> dot,
> > > >release (6)
> > > >
> > > >If you go through the alphabet with this analysis, you'll see that
> total
> > > >movements are fewer with the single-lever because pushing it one way
> > clears
> > > >the opposite contact.
> > > >
> > > >If the characters a, c, k, n, r, and + (/ar) are all the identical
> > motions
> > > >iambicly (and I'll concede they probably are), then it is no wonder
my
> > brain
> > > >gets confused. Each letter ought to be a discrete set of motions,
> > shouldn't
> > > >it? I'd not only have to remember those identical motions, but I'd
> also
> > > >have to be very precise in my timing and I wouldn't have a sidetone
to
> > help
> > > >me because my motions are required to be ahead of the sidetone --
> that's
> > > >sending blind???
> > > >
> > > >No, I do not see that the iambic keyer is doing a lot of the work for
> us.
> > > >
> > > >About sending periods. . . People who do that are one of my pet
> peeves.
> > > >Most of the folks I talk with just pause a second if they want to
> pause.
> > > >They send neither a period nor a BT. But if they need to say "uh"
then
> > they
> > > >might send BT.
> > > >
> > > >73, Mike N4NT
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Ronald KA4INM Youvan" <[email protected]>
> > > >To: "cw" <[email protected]>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:27 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [CW] High speed sending...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Mike Hyder -N4NT- wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > John, their proof fails. They not only ignore the fact that
with
> > dual
> > > > > > levers you must make an independent motion to release a lever;
> they
> > > > > > absolutely deny that is the case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I am sending the letter "A" then I make 3 motions: push dot,
> > push
> > > >dash,
> > > > > > release. Pushing the dash clears the dot contact on a
> single-lever
> > key.
> > > > > > With the dual-lever, I must push the dot, push the dash, release
> the
> > > >dot,
> > > > > > release the dash. Call it as you will, there are more motions
> > required
> > > >with
> > > > > > the dual-lever -- in fact I believe something like 13 of the
> letters
> > > >require
> > > > > > more discrete motions to send with the dual-lever than the
single.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike, you are missing something important, send an `a' then
send
> a
> > `.'
> > > >with
> > > > > your single lever, I use the SAME motion and effort for both with
my
> > > >double
> > > > > lever, do you see any difference? The characters a, c, k, n, r,
and
> +
> > > >(/ar)
> > > > > (possibly more, it is late) are all the identical motions
iambicly,
> > > > > are they with a single lever? Do you see that the iambic keyer is
> > doing a
> > > >lot
> > > > > of the work for us?
> > > > > When I rag chew I never send a /bt, I send a period to end
> > sentences,
> > > > > or thoughts. Why not, it fits and it is as easy to send as the
> letter
> > A.
> > > > > Do you see why?
>
>
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