[Boatanchors] Boatanchors Digest, Vol 82, Issue 24

Henry Mei'l's meils at get2net.dk
Tue Nov 16 13:34:02 EST 2010


Bob, N0DGN:  If you read my original text carefully you will see that I in 
fact equate "Siemen" (actually "siemens"-I left out the final -s, and the 
correct form is "siemens") with "mho," an ohm standing on its head" i.e. 
upside down omega.
My ironical question was whether, from a logical point of view, seimens 
spelled backwards, "(s)nemeis" would then again be equivalent to an ohm!
I could have laid it on even thicker by asking if a "snemeis" should be 
represented by an upside-down S, an S standing on its head

BTW citing my Referernce Data for Radio Engineers, 5th editon, page 3-6:
         "siemens  S  Depreceated . Use mho."
     [Note: Here, units are not capitalized, regardless of whether or not 
they may be named after individuals,
     e.g. siemens, ohm, henry ]

Also, in anothe reference book, I found G used to represent conductivity and 
is defined as:
          "1/R   unit 1/omega ;  1/omega = 1 mho"

Here, seimens is not mentioned, despite the book (K.Gieck) being an English 
language German publication.

I have NOT checked to see what the most up-to-date conventions are for 
representing conductivty.
Please keep in mind that my original post was meant to be humorous
and not a stringent,scientific/academic presentation.

73 de
Henry M., OZ1UF / N2NR
PS: I left the message-tail for continuity in this thread, otherwise would 
have removed it.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: <boatanchors-request at mailman.qth.net>
To: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:35 AM
Subject: Boatanchors Digest, Vol 82, Issue 24


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Boatanchors Digest, Vol 82, Issue 23 / W= J/s (Henry Mei'l's)
>   2. Re: W= J/s AND Siemens (rbethman)
>   3. The SI Authoritative reference (rbethman)
>   4. Re: W= J/s AND Siemens (Ian Wilson)
>   5. Re: W= J/s AND Siemens (rbethman)
>   6. Re: W= J/s AND Siemens (Kludge)
>   7. Re: W= J/s AND Siemens (J. Forster)
>   8. Re: W= J/s AND Siemens (WA5CAB at cs.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:41:18 +0100
> From: "Henry Mei'l's" <meils at get2net.dk>
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] Boatanchors Digest, Vol 82, Issue 23 / W=
> J/s
> To: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <5531BA51A40F4055B85F68307D3D179B at ejerf59be5593b>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> In response to Eugene, W2HX:
>
> I was thinking almost the same thing,  why not J/s instead of W for 
> Watts? -
> except that for the practical reason
> that wattage is such a frequently applied concept.
> (Note: lower case "s" for second; upper case  "S" is used for Siemens)
>
> (BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega), standing 
> on
> its head (Mho)  -- does that make
> a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
>
> My impression is that going over to Hz was simply a step in maintaning
> uniformity in naming most oft-applied electical units after
> signifcant individuals connected with the development of electronics.
> Also, many countries had already used Hz for quiet some time.
> HOWEVER, I also agree that  KC/MC, kc/mc... should be applied to gear 
> where
> this was the norm during the era in which the gear was produced, e.g. Boat
> Anchor
> gear produced in the US and several other countries
> -- before the standardization to Hz.
>
> I went to Ten Mile River Boy Scout Camp when I was a kid.
> Hope they don't rename it, Sixteen-kilometer Boy Scout Camp.
>
> (Don't think anyone seriously would consider modernizing the Biblical 
> cubits
> measure to metrics, either.)
>
> Does anyone have any objections to US currency being decimal/metric?
> I remember being in London and Folkstone when they were converting their
> monetary system!
>
> Wasn't there something about Canada once refusing to adhere to adding 
> number
> "1" as
> part of an international standard for  keyboards, on the basis that the
> letter "l" could be used for both?  What happens when you have a 
> combination
> of "1's" and "l's" in the same letter-number group?
>
> Some companies simply use "~" to indicate alternating current.  Why not 
> 7M~
> or ~7M  instead of 7MHz?.
>
> Henry *
> OZ1UF / N2NR
> * Vs/A , Wb/A
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:01:10 -0500
> From: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] W= J/s AND Siemens
> To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <4CE18376.9060602 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> It would appear that "some" do not know what the SI (International Units
> Standards), actually read and mean.
>
> A Siemen is CONDUCTANCE therefore it is the "old" mho.   It is NOT an Ohm!
>
> This is a result of "constantly" altering the "names" of measurements!
> People MUST learn the new ones to have them be meaningful!  Otherwise
> there are folks that step in the middle of a discourse and essentially
> step into and fall into the mud puddle.
>
> Yes, I'm 60 now.  However, I DO remember how to read, and how to
> "adapt".  It does NOT mean I simply agree with the persistent fiddling
> with such.
>
> Feynman is indeed used in Nuclear Physics, and Nuclear Reactor
> Engineering.  His contribution in 1965 really wasn't THAT significant.
>
> Bob - N0DGN
>
> On 11/15/2010 1:41 PM, Henry Mei'l's wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> (BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega), standing 
>> on
>> its head (Mho)  -- does that make
>> a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
> <SNIP>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:22:24 -0500
> From: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
> Subject: [Boatanchors] The SI Authoritative reference
> To: Boatanchors Mail List <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <4CE18870.8080900 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> This is available at:
>
> <http://www.bipm.org/utils/en/pdf/si-brochure.pdf>
>
> Bob - N0DGN
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:25:20 -0800
> From: Ian Wilson <ianmwilson73 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] W= J/s AND Siemens
> To: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
> Cc: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinFsnwj9=H7smdZacHwuE8enWAcTLuHuO00jb98 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The original poster did say that a Siemen was an Ohm standing on its head.
>
> Personally I don't care what units we use as long as they are precise 
> enough
> to
> avoid making avoidable errors. Please don't get me started on the use of
> different
> meanings for "Al" by ferrite material manufacturers.
>
> 73, ian K3IMW
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> It would appear that "some" do not know what the SI (International Units
>> Standards), actually read and mean.
>>
>> A Siemen is CONDUCTANCE therefore it is the "old" mho.   It is NOT an 
>> Ohm!
>>
>> This is a result of "constantly" altering the "names" of measurements!
>> People MUST learn the new ones to have them be meaningful!  Otherwise
>> there are folks that step in the middle of a discourse and essentially
>> step into and fall into the mud puddle.
>>
>> Yes, I'm 60 now.  However, I DO remember how to read, and how to
>> "adapt".  It does NOT mean I simply agree with the persistent fiddling
>> with such.
>>
>> Feynman is indeed used in Nuclear Physics, and Nuclear Reactor
>> Engineering.  His contribution in 1965 really wasn't THAT significant.
>>
>> Bob - N0DGN
>>
>> On 11/15/2010 1:41 PM, Henry Mei'l's wrote:
>> > <SNIP>
>> >
>> > (BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega), 
>> > standing
>> on
>> > its head (Mho)  -- does that make
>> > a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
>> <SNIP>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>> ** For Assistance: dfischer at usol.com **
>>
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:49:17 -0500
> From: rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] W= J/s AND Siemens
> To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <4CE19CCD.9050507 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I do not construe that an Ohm standing on its head "means" inverse of
> the Ohm.
>
> That gets into power factor being described as Amps "wearing tennis
> shoes".  Heard that use as a description almost 40 years ago.  Didn't
> make sense then, and it still doesn't.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> Bob - N0DGN
>
> On 11/15/2010 3:25 PM, Ian Wilson wrote:
>> The original poster did say that a Siemen was an Ohm standing on its
>> head.
>>
>> Personally I don't care what units we use as long as they are precise
>> enough to
>> avoid making avoidable errors. Please don't get me started on the use
>> of different
>> meanings for "Al" by ferrite material manufacturers.
>>
>> 73, ian K3IMW
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM, rbethman <rbethman at comcast.net
>> <mailto:rbethman at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     It would appear that "some" do not know what the SI (International
>>     Units
>>     Standards), actually read and mean.
>>
>>     A Siemen is CONDUCTANCE therefore it is the "old" mho.   It is NOT
>>     an Ohm!
>>
>>     This is a result of "constantly" altering the "names" of 
>> measurements!
>>     People MUST learn the new ones to have them be meaningful!  Otherwise
>>     there are folks that step in the middle of a discourse and 
>> essentially
>>     step into and fall into the mud puddle.
>>
>>     Yes, I'm 60 now.  However, I DO remember how to read, and how to
>>     "adapt".  It does NOT mean I simply agree with the persistent 
>> fiddling
>>     with such.
>>
>>     Feynman is indeed used in Nuclear Physics, and Nuclear Reactor
>>     Engineering.  His contribution in 1965 really wasn't THAT 
>> significant.
>>
>>     Bob - N0DGN
>>
>>     On 11/15/2010 1:41 PM, Henry Mei'l's wrote:
>>     > <SNIP>
>>     >
>>     > (BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega),
>>     standing on
>>     > its head (Mho)  -- does that make
>>     > a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
>>     <SNIP>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:55:22 -1000
> From: "Kludge" <wh7hg.hi at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] W= J/s AND Siemens
> To: <boatanchors at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <6D6873BCB6CD40D6BD79CF8CFCDD0118 at kongo>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of rbethman
>> On 11/15/2010 1:41 PM, Henry Mei'l's wrote:
>>> (BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega), 
>>> standing
> on
>>> its head (Mho)  -- does that make a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
>> It would appear that "some" do not know what the SI (International Units
>> Standards), actually read and mean.
>> A Siemen is CONDUCTANCE therefore it is the "old" mho.   It is NOT an 
>> Ohm!
>
> Bob, Henry was just having a little gentle fun with us as he often does.
> (Note the winking smiley at the end.)  Please don't take things so
> seriously; it's just not worth it.  I suspect that Henry can work in SI
> quite comfortably, enough to play with it just as comfortably.  He's
> certainly willing to play with his first name enough.
>
> SI, Imperial, whatever ... I'll stick with what I'm comfortable using 
> where
> appropriate but if I know people won't have a clue what I'm talking about
> (120 MC Pentium?  What's that?), I'll go to what's known in that arena. 
> For
> example, for a long time, ham bands were referred to in metric wavelengths
> but antennas were measured in feet and inches.  I haven't looked recently 
> if
> the latter has changed in the ARRL handbook et al to metric but a current
> production antenna I'm looking at purchasing pieces of is measured in feet
> and inches.  These are also the (probably inaccurate therefore useless)
> units I use for calculations for antennas as do many others.
>
> Getting back, however, a Mho and a Siemen are the same thing.  A Mho is
> often if not always represented by an inverted omega, the symbol used for
> the Ohm, or an omega (Ohm) standing on its head (Mho.)
>
> So now can we get back to our usual bickering?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael, WH7HG BL01xh
> http://www.nationalmssociety.org/chapters/NTH/index.aspx
> http://wh7hg.blogspot.com/
> http://kludges-other-blog.blogspot.com
> Hiki N?!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:20:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: "J. Forster" <jfor at quik.com>
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] W= J/s AND Siemens
> To: "Kludge" <wh7hg.hi at gmail.com>
> Cc: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <60297.12.6.201.2.1289877649.squirrel at popaccts.quikus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I would think you guys would call it a 1.6 Meter Pentium.
>
> -John
>
> ==============
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> [mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of rbethman
>>> On 11/15/2010 1:41 PM, Henry Mei'l's wrote:
>>>> (BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega),
>>>> standing
>> on
>>>> its head (Mho)  -- does that make a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
>>> It would appear that "some" do not know what the SI (International Units
>>> Standards), actually read and mean.
>>> A Siemen is CONDUCTANCE therefore it is the "old" mho.   It is NOT an
>>> Ohm!
>>
>> Bob, Henry was just having a little gentle fun with us as he often does.
>> (Note the winking smiley at the end.)  Please don't take things so
>> seriously; it's just not worth it.  I suspect that Henry can work in SI
>> quite comfortably, enough to play with it just as comfortably.  He's
>> certainly willing to play with his first name enough.
>>
>> SI, Imperial, whatever ... I'll stick with what I'm comfortable using
>> where
>> appropriate but if I know people won't have a clue what I'm talking about
>> (120 MC Pentium?  What's that?), I'll go to what's known in that arena.
>> For
>> example, for a long time, ham bands were referred to in metric 
>> wavelengths
>> but antennas were measured in feet and inches.  I haven't looked recently
>> if
>> the latter has changed in the ARRL handbook et al to metric but a current
>> production antenna I'm looking at purchasing pieces of is measured in 
>> feet
>> and inches.  These are also the (probably inaccurate therefore useless)
>> units I use for calculations for antennas as do many others.
>>
>> Getting back, however, a Mho and a Siemen are the same thing.  A Mho is
>> often if not always represented by an inverted omega, the symbol used for
>> the Ohm, or an omega (Ohm) standing on its head (Mho.)
>>
>> So now can we get back to our usual bickering?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Michael, WH7HG BL01xh
>> http://www.nationalmssociety.org/chapters/NTH/index.aspx
>> http://wh7hg.blogspot.com/
>> http://kludges-other-blog.blogspot.com
>> Hiki N?!
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Boatanchors mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/boatanchors
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
>>
>> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
>> ** For Assistance: dfischer at usol.com **
>>
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:34:54 EST
> From: WA5CAB at cs.com
> Subject: Re: [Boatanchors] W= J/s AND Siemens
> To: boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID: <3c7e.3ba7bec7.3a1371fe at cs.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Several comments in this thread have terminally irritated me (not
> specifially those copied below - I just didn't save the earlier ones). 
> Systeme
> Internationale, also know as (or AKA as in Police criminal reports) the
> Rationalized Meter-Kilogram-Second system, or RMKS, is a system for 
> losers.  In fact,
> the French, who are are its main proponents, have not won a war without
> outside help since the time of Julius Caesar.  That has been several 
> months.
> Roughly 23592 to be exact.  The Metric System basically sucks.  The basic
> units are poorly sized for practical use.  The names change sporadically,
> randomly and without warning.  The only one that's fairly useful is the 
> klick.
> Half a klick is beyond normal pistol range.  So a half Klick perimeter is
> moderately safe.  One klick is good rifle range.  And ten klicks is good
> tactical Nuke blast radius.  Beyond that, the Seimen sounds vulgar if not
> downright obscene.  The Tesla is too large for small field measurements 
> and too
> small for large field ones.  The degree Centigrade (or Celcius or Kelvin) 
> is too
> large (only 100 cover the freezing point of water to well above the lethal
> range for humans).  The Millimeter is too coarse for basic machining. but
> too fine for common measurements.  I could go on and on with bad examples.
> And I don't really give a damn what the New Zealund educational sytem 
> thinks
> of it.  In New Zealand since the 16th Century there have been more murders
> than the Nazis, the Japanese, and the Soviets accomplished in the 20th, 
> and
> with a much smaller potential victim base.  So I don't have a high opinion 
> of
> New Zealund.
>
> All of the metric based threaded fastener systems are poorly designed for
> survival in the real world.  Thread pitch is too fine and bolt head
> dimensions are too small.
>
> Speaking as an engineer with considerable experience in building equipment
> to survive in hostile environments, the whole Metric edifice is not worth
> the powder to blow it to Hell.  Which is where it belongs.  Anyone 
> incapable
> of quickly and easily learning the English system has a very low IQ and
> belongs in the Democratic Muslim Party with Obama, Pelosi, and the rest of 
> the
> terrorists on the planet.
>
> If I haven't made it crystal clear, the metric system was designed by
> idiots for idiots.  Thank God that one country on the planet has not yet
> succumbed  to its idiocy.  However, I expect it is only a matter of time 
> before the
> entire planet goes dark.  The last election, although promising, still 
> left
> several of the terrorist Democrats in position.
>
> In a message dated 11/15/2010 9:24:25 PM Central Standard Time,
> jfor at quik.com writes:
>> would think you guys would call it a 1.6 Meter Pentium.
>>
>> -John
>>
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>> >[mailto:boatanchors-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of rbethman
>> >>On 11/15/2010 1:41 PM, Henry Mei'l's wrote:
>> >>>(BTW: A not too serious question: If a Siemen is an Ohm (Omega),
>> >>>standing
>> >on
>> >>>its head (Mho)  -- does that make a  Nemeis an Ohm ? ;0)
>> >>It would appear that "some" do not know what the SI (International 
>> >>Units
>> >>Standards), actually read and mean.
>> >>A Siemen is CONDUCTANCE therefore it is the "old" mho.   It is NOT an
>> >>Ohm!
>> >
>> >Bob, Henry was just having a little gentle fun with us as he often does.
>> >(Note the winking smiley at the end.)  Please don't take things so
>> >seriously; it's just not worth it.  I suspect that Henry can work in SI
>> >quite comfortably, enough to play with it just as comfortably.  He's
>> >certainly willing to play with his first name enough.
>> >
>> >SI, Imperial, whatever ... I'll stick with what I'm comfortable using
>> >where
>> >appropriate but if I know people won't have a clue what I'm talking 
>> >about
>> >(120 MC Pentium?  What's that?), I'll go to what's known in that arena.
>> >For
>> >example, for a long time, ham bands were referred to in metric
>> wavelengths
>> >but antennas were measured in feet and inches.  I haven't looked 
>> >recently
>> >if
>> >the latter has changed in the ARRL handbook et al to metric but a 
>> >current
>> >production antenna I'm looking at purchasing pieces of is measured in
>> feet
>> >and inches.  These are also the (probably inaccurate therefore useless)
>> >units I use for calculations for antennas as do many others.
>> >
>> >Getting back, however, a Mho and a Siemen are the same thing.  A Mho is
>> >often if not always represented by an inverted omega, the symbol used 
>> >for
>> >the Ohm, or an omega (Ohm) standing on its head (Mho.)
>> >
>> >So now can we get back to our usual bickering?
>>
>
> Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
> wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
> MVPA 9480
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Boatanchors mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/boatanchors
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Boatanchors at mailman.qth.net
>
> List Administrator: Duane Fischer, W8DBF
> ** For Assistance: dfischer at usol.com **
>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> End of Boatanchors Digest, Vol 82, Issue 24
> *******************************************


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