[Boatanchors] Re: Polyester vs. Polypropylene Orange-Drops? [Also component lifetimes]

[Todd Bigelow - PS]

"Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:

> Todd Bigelow seemed to be really offended by my comments
> about Orange Drop� capacitors.

Not at all, Barry. You over estimate your impact. I think 'slightly
annoyed' would be far more accurate. Not so much by your
less-than-accurate account that Vishay "bought Sprague and Orange Drops
are not made in the US anymore", more by the way that you would try to
dismiss the entire R-390 list with a "don't listen to them, listen to me
because I'm smarter" type of approach, simply because you didn't like the
list for some reason. While I'll admit that there are fools there (audio
and otherwise) as there are on every list, there are also some very good
people with extensive knowledge and experience in the fields of
electronics and radio, particularly the radios specific to that list; the
R-390 and later 'A' model, as well as other variants. Whatever reasons
you don't like the R-390 list, I'm guessing you've worked them out now?
It wasn't because there are already 4 other Barrys there, was it? (o:

> Actually SB Electronics, according to my 2003 EEM which
> arrived last week, was formed by a management buyout in
> 1986.

Correct, Perry Browning and some of the others who worked there decided
to save a company (or a piece of it) that had been part of the fiber of
the local community for decades. It saved jobs and helped the small city
of Barre, along with keeping an excellent product line available to us.
Perry ended up the sole owner IIRC until he sold the company last summer.

> <snip>
> The registered trademark of Orange Drop�, according to the
> US Patent and Trademark Office, was originally registered
> to Sprague Electric Company in 1959, a date verified by SB
> Electronics in their EEM listing.  It is now assigned to SB
> Electronics as renewed on June 10 of last year.  The
> Sprague name, however is now internationally registered as
> a trademark of Vishay Sprague (World Intellectual
> Property Organization).  This is based on the 1959 original
> Sprague registration.  [Search results are show below.]

But the Sprague name wasn't the issue -  the Orange Drops� name,
ownership, and place of manufacture was, and your remarks on the matter
were stated as if they were fact, yet are completely inaccurate.

> > Hope this clears up another urban legend before it
> > begins....
>
> I would say it just confuses things even more.  Either
> Mouser has been printing misinformation for years and they
> need to be corrected, or Vishay has the rights to use the
> name based on their buyout of Sprague (after SB Electronics
> was formed).  It is only speculation on my part, but SB
> Electronics may have renewed the Orange Drop� trademark
> when the original Sprague trademark expired.  But if Vishay
> was using it as part of a Sprague buyout prior to their
> renewal, SB Electronics cannot enforce their trademark on
> them.  [But then, I am not a patent/trademark attorney.  I
> have had some minimal training in this area, however, from
> Gore, Kodak, and Eastman.  All of these companies protected
> their trademarks strenuously.  Infringement is rarely taken lightly.]

Perhaps you are correct and both have rights to the name, but that
doesn't mean they are made in India or China or anywhere else than right
here in the USA. Maybe Vishay is selling relabeled SBE Orange Drops to
round out their product line? Everywhere I've seen ODs offered, they
could be traced back to SBE.

> In a later note, Todd mentions Barker Microfarads, Inc.  It
> too was a management/employee buyout (1990) of a Sprague
> plant before Vishay bought the rest of the Sprague line
> (Sprague Goodman, a maker of variable capacitors is a
> different company).  BMI is located in Hillsville, VA, up I-81
> and relatively close to me.  They do not appear to be
> using any original Sprague trademarks.

Must be content with the reputation they've built from the processes and
line(s) they bought? Could be they now make a product far superior to the
equivalent Sprague line they began with and decided that their new
reputation and name is also superior to the one built by Sprague in this
area?

> Now Todd is free to enjoy and believe in whatever he wants
> as to audio.

Thank you, oh Gracious one. Could we include RF in this statement as
well, even if different component types apply? I'm not wealthy enough to
fall into the audiophool category, and I'm certainly not intelligent
enough to determine the exact component best suited to everyone's audio
or RF needs. (o:

> I find that specifically advertising
> polyester capacitors for audio leaves much to be desired.
> Polyester has a much higher dielectric absorption than does
> polypropylene.  This has no bearing on RF applications, but
> it is important in precision timing and low frequency
> amplification if really low distortion is needed.

Here's what the SBE page says, Barry:

Tight Tolerance Polypropylene Capacitors To Replace Polystyrene
             For years SBE has provided Polypropylene capacitors with
tolerances as close as �1%.
             Recognizing Polystyrene film to be in short supply you have
an alternative. Since we design
             and build much of our own winding equipment we are able to
manufacture many of our
             Polypropylene units with tight tolerances. Our winding
equipment utilizes a precision
             capacitance control system that we developed here at SBE
specifically for manufacturing tight
             tolerance units. Our goal in manufacturing ALL of our
products is to provide a capacitance
             distribution centered around nominal. We encourage you to
contact us with your specific
             needs.

If you go to the Products/Specs page, you'll see that most of the OD
lines/ratings are offered as polypropylene, or offered in both
polypropylene or polyester, and a few are offered in polyester only.
Orange Drops are not just polyester anymore and haven't been for a while
now. In fact, it would appear that they've moved away from this in favor
of polypropylene.

Above that in 'Product Offerings it reads in part:

We encourage you to contact us with your specifications and
             put us to the test! Polyester, Polypropylene, Metallized,
Film/Foil, Radial Leads, Axial Leads,
             Lugs, 4 Leaded Devices, High Voltage, Tight Tolerance, RC
Networks. We are the Film
             Capacitor Specialists. Contact us today!

They have a lot of other good information there as well, may I recommend
it as bedtime reading sometime, or perhaps a quiet night at home? It
could come in quite handy later on when you need to reference products
offered or the actual location of Orange Drop� manufacturing. You should
inquire about some of the new devices they are working on.

> As for buying American, I generally buy the best available
> technology for the dollar.  It is difficult to find any
> high-technology company that is exclusively American these
> days.  Most major USA companies are now global and have
> been for many years.  Sadly much of the American quality
> left when corporate managers became more interested in
> short-term profits and stock performance while ignoring the
> long-term health of their companies.

I won't dispute this one bit, because you 100% accurate when you say
"much". But not "all", many good products and processes still reside here
in the USA, of the highest quality and design. While I do not disagree
with buying the "best technology for the dollar", I do believe it is
irresponsible to make off-the-cuff remarks that deal with an industry or
particular business, simply because you didn't like a certain email
reflector or because some audiophool suggested a specific product line.
If Vishay and SBE both share the trade mark, that's fine by me. The fact
of the matter is that SBE took over the manufacture of Orange Drops in
the same building where they were being produced by Sprague, using the
same equipment. Someone else can use the name and apply it to bright blue
lollipops if they so desire, but the original Orange Drops are still made
right in Barre, Vermont where they always have been. We do a disservice
to ourselves and our country when we simply dismiss American made
products as either being no good or not worthy of consideration without
first knowing all the facts.

Now, before someone takes this as a flame war, I want to be clear that I
have the utmost respect for you Barry, and your abilities. I'm not
disagreeing with your science one bit, I simply disagree with your
approach in this matter. I wouldn't encourage anyone to buy something
simply because it was American made, but I'd sure like to see more
research and fact placed in more than just the electronic or chemical
formulas. If we're going to assume things, how about giving ourselves the
benefit of the doubt?

73 de Todd/'Boomer'  KA1KAQ

BTW, the new owner as of July is Ed Sawyer, a ham from the
southwest/midwest. He's also the new president of the local radio club.