[ARC5] A-10 Radios --> Nav systems
Bob kb8tq
kb8tq at n1k.org
Fri Jul 13 18:44:56 EDT 2018
Hi
It didn’t just happen in the Berlin air corridor. Planes got in trouble in the Baltic and in the Black Sea. I have reason to
believe some of the confusion resulted in planes being shot down ….
Messing with GPS ( whatever the term you use) does not just have implications for military navigation. There are a lot
of things you can muck up on a local basis by fiddling with GPS. The gotcha there is more “do they even know…” than
anything else. I spent a couple years on an issue like that with the MOD spinning around in circles ….
Indeed for years and years, the advice was “don’t use electronic nav in these areas”. Everyplace I know of that there
were problems, that was the SOP. Despite that, somebody had this or that electronic gear switched on and believed it more
than what they were supposed to be using. Much of this back in the “good old days” when everybody was fully trained
to do dead reckoning nav ….
There are no prefect answers.
Bob
> On Jul 13, 2018, at 5:47 PM, Tim <timsamm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yep,, The Russians got pretty good at spoofing Nav signals on the air corridor leading into post-war Berlin. The more modern term for spoofing Nav signals is Meaconing. When detected, you filed a MIJI report to higher...
>
> Tim
> N6CC
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org <mailto:kb8tq at n1k.org>> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Well, yes and no. If you have noise jamming, the system simply shuts down on this or that part of the band. Most jamming you
> hear about is narrowband in nature and far from “random” noise. If you set up a big enough / powerful enough noise source to
> effectively jam something like an A-10 that is moving at speed, you *will* be noticed. You also will be something that is fairly
> easy to home in on and … errr … apply 30 mm rounds to.
>
> The bigger problem is spoofing. There the bad guy tries to fool you into believing that his signal is the real nav signal. Loran along
> with any number of military radio nav systems is / was susceptible to this sort of thing. There were a lot of incidents in during the
> Cold War related to nav being spoofed and aircraft wandering over borders as a result. All of this *long* before GPS (or any other
> satellite based system) came into use.
>
> Spoofing a multiband / multi system nav system that has some smarts built in - not at all easy.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jul 13, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Brooke Clarke <brooke at pacific.net <mailto:brooke at pacific.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > The problem is that all these sat nav systems work in what used to be called L-band (1 - 2 GHz) and it's pretty easy to make a receiver deaf by noise jamming with low power. and an antenna that's a few inches in size. The mil receivers know they are being jammed and roughly the bearing where it's coming from, but they still are jammed.
> >
> > LORAN-C, operating at 100 kHz and with the eLORAN updates would be close to GPS in capability and is virtually jam proof. The transmitters are running hundreds of megawatts into a 1000+ foot antenna. Hard to generate a signal at the receiver that can compete with that received power.
> >
> > --
> > Have Fun,
> >
> > Brooke Clarke
> > http://www.PRC68.com <http://www.prc68.com/>
> > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html <http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html>
> > axioms:
> > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
> > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Glonass ( the “Russian GPS”) has been running for almost 20 years now. The latest modernization phase started roughly
> >> 10 years back. It has been fully functional for quite a while. The European Galileo is still in the “get enough sats up there”
> >> phase. What they have up works ( with a few failures of various sub-systems causing the backups to come on line). The
> >> Chinese system is a bit further back than that. The Japanese system is up and running with coverage only in a limited area
> >> (by design). The Indian government is still making noises about doing their own system. We’ll see how that all works out.
> >>
> >> Without much effort you can get $10 GPS / Glonass receivers on eBay (USB sticks). They will happily give you a nav solution
> >> based on either system or on both at once. Many also will do the Chinese and Japanese systems in the part of the world where
> >> there is coverage. Finding cheap stuff that tosses Galileo into the mix is a bit harder. You probably will have to spend $20 to $30.
> >>
> >> If you have the money, you can get multi band (L1/L2/L5) deuces that will work with the big three ( GPS, Galileo, Glonass). That’s
> >> been true for about 5 years. Why you would pay for the European system when it’s not fully deployed .. hmmm…. ( = that add-on
> >> may cost about $7,000 alone). If you want to really make it tough on a bad guy, run multi band / multi system. It just costs a
> >> (gulp ..) little more.
> >>
> >> So no, we are not living in a world with only one sat nav system.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Jul 12, 2018, at 9:19 PM, Peter Gottlieb <kb2vtl at gmail.com <mailto:kb2vtl at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> At this point it seems the govt believes that science and reason are not to be trusted so all decisions must be opposite what the subject matter experts say. So I have close to zero faith they will do the right thing.
> >>>
> >>> Is the Russian Glonast system up and running yet? Is that more robust? I would think that relying on multiple independent satnav systems would improve the odds that jamming would be detected, etc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 7/12/2018 8:13 PM, Robert Downs via ARC5 wrote:
> >>>> So does everyone else with good sense. Which doesn't mean it won't be done
> >>>> that way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Robert Downs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net> [mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net <mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net>] On
> >>>> Behalf Of Kenneth G. Gordon
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 17:38
> >>>> To: Francesco Ledda
> >>>> Cc: 'To: ARC-5'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARC5] A-10 Radios
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Personally, I think it is a big mistake to put all our navigation eggs in
> >>>> one basket.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ken W7EKB
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>> ARC5 mailing list
> >>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5 <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5>
> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> >>>> Post: mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> >>>>
> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> >>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>> ARC5 mailing list
> >>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5 <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5>
> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> >>>> Post: mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> >>>>
> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> >>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>> ARC5 mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5 <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5>
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> >>> Post: mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> ARC5 mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5 <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5>
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> >> Post: mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > ARC5 mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5 <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5>
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> > Post: mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ARC5 mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5 <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/arc5>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:ARC5 at mailman.qth.net>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/attachments/20180713/54fcb69e/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the ARC5
mailing list