[ARC5] A-10 Radios

Tom Lee tomlee at ee.stanford.edu
Tue Jul 10 19:21:35 EDT 2018


Yes -- wideband FM has interesting characteristics, as mentioned in 
connection with the term "capture". The demodulated SNR is not strictly 
proportional to received SNR, unlike for AM. Above a certain threshold, 
FM's output SNR pops up and stays high. Below it, it's crap. So a weak 
signal hardly interferes with a sufficiently strong one; it's largely 
suppressed. For AM, you can hear both. Which modulation you prefer 
depends on what problem needs solving.

Narrowband FM behaves much like AM (little or no capture effect).

--Tom

-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Bldg., CIS-205
420 Via Palou Mall
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
http://www-smirc.stanford.edu
650-725-3383 (public fax; no confidential information, please)

On 7/10/2018 4:09 PM, Jay Coward via ARC5 wrote:
> Hi Bart,
>  Isn't this also known as "picket fencing" from multipath reception?
>  Jay KE6PPF
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bart Lee <kv6lee at gmail.com>
> To: macklinbob <macklinbob at gmail.com>
> Cc: To: ARC-5 <arc5 at mailman.qth.net>; Robert Eleazer 
> <releazer at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2018 2:00 pm
> Subject: Re: [ARC5] A-10 Radios
>
> FM received by a mobile (or air mobile) vehicle can "washboard" the 
> received signal as the moving vehicle hits the incoming radio waves. 
> Car radios on FM frequently have this issue. Aviation AM may or may 
> not have been selected to avoid this problem, at 135 MHz and below. AM 
> was the way aviation radio started, so there was some lock-in, 
> especially after Curtis LeMay selected single sideband for SAC in the 
> early 1950s. SSB's power advantages may also have come into play.  73 
> de Bart, K6VK ##
> -- --
> Bart Lee
> ​, K6VK, CHRS, AWA, ARRL​
>
> Texts only to: 415 902 7168
>
> www.bartlee.com <http://www.bartlee.com/>
>
> {KV6LEE(at)gmail(dot)com} ##
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 5:31 PM K5MYJ <macklinbob at gmail.com 
> <mailto:macklinbob at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     The reason for the use of AM in aviation is you can hear when
>     somone doubles. Not so with FM.
>     The reason of low band FM is to communicate with the troops on the
>     ground.
>     I was in Korea in 1953. We used AT-6s for FAC operations. Our
>     AT-6s had ARC-5 VHF radios.
>     The people on the ground had ARC-3s in jeeps.
>     Bob Macklin
>     K5MYJ
>     Seattle, Wa.
>     "Real Radios Glow In The Dark"
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         *From:* Peter Gottlieb <mailto:kb2vtl at gmail.com>
>         *To:* Scott Johnson <mailto:scottjohnson1 at cox.net>
>         *Cc:* arc5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:arc5 at mailman.qth.net> ;
>         Robert Eleazer <mailto:releazer at earthlink.net>
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, July 04, 2018 2:45 PM
>         *Subject:* Re: [ARC5] A-10 Radios
>
>         In a practical sense for any of us the question might be
>         whether in regular AM and FM use the radio performs any better
>         than other radios. The answer is probably not.
>
>
>         Peter
>
>         On Jul 4, 2018, at 12:45 PM, Scott Johnson
>         <scottjohnson1 at cox.net <mailto:scottjohnson1 at cox.net>> wrote:
>
>             Most all USAF tactical assets now have the ARC-210, which
>             covers all the military bands and modes from 30-512 MHz,
>             and has built in ECCM and secure speech, as well as satcom
>             capability (all with the proper antennas and switching, of
>             course).  It is an awesome radio, but at $100K a copy, not
>             on my wish list.  Like the ARC-164, it will probably
>             soldier on for at least thirty years (it’s already about
>             fifteen years old, but evolving, just like the -164)
>             Scott V. Johnson P.E. W7SVJ
>             Sunburst Engineering Partners
>             5111 E. Sharon Dr.
>             Scottsdale, AZ 85254-3636
>             H (602) 953-5779
>             C (480) 550-2358
>             <mailto:scottjohnson1 at cox.net>scottjohnson1 at cox.net
>             <mailto:scottjohnson1 at cox.net>
>             <mailto:scott.johnson at ieee.org>scott.johnson at ieee.org
>             <mailto:scott.johnson at ieee.org>
>             *From:* arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>             <mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net>
>             <arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net
>             <mailto:arc5-bounces at mailman.qth.net>> *On Behalf Of
>             *Robert Eleazer
>             *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 9:55 AM
>             *To:* arc5 at mailman.qth.net <mailto:arc5 at mailman.qth.net>
>             *Subject:* [ARC5] A-10 Radios
>             When I was at the Pentagon the idea was to get rid of the
>             A-10 and use F-16's.  The F-16 equipped with a weapons
>             load comparable to an A-10 could do a very nice job of
>             making sure no one got past the guard shack at the main
>             gate of its home base.
>             The fear was that the A-10 was so slow that when the
>             Warsaw Pact came through the Fulda Gap the A-10 would get
>             hit on the first day of the war and although probably
>             survive to make it home but we would not have time to
>             repair it before the war was over.
>             Some on Congress said that if USAF got rid of the A-10 the
>             US Army should take over the airplane, it being a much
>             better "mud mover."  The Army was terrified, saying that
>             all their airplanes had to have at least two seats.
>             Then came Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and the A-10 was the
>             machine to have.  And when the war was over we had lost
>             four A-10's and four F-16's  So much for survivability
>             concerns.  A re-engining program was started for the A-10
>             a few years later. And the USSR went out of business on 25
>             Dec 1991; so much for the Fulda Gap concern
>             To some in the USAF was faced with either keeping the A-10
>             or buying the F-35 - and the F-35 won.   I do not know if
>             that insanity persists.
>             The A-10 would have at a minimum VHF AM Air Band (108-132
>             MHZ), UHF AM (220-400 MHZ), and low band FM (30-76 MHZ)
>             radios.  The ARC-114, ARC-115, and ARC-116 such as carried
>             by US Army helicopters of the late 60's would do nicely
>             but it no doubt has gear later than that.
>             Anyway, look it up yourself.  The pilot's manual for the
>             A-10 is available for free download here:
>             http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=42
>             Wayne
>             WB5WSV
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