[ADXA] Good comment and surely the ADXA FT mode users know exactly what you are talking about...

Tue Aug 10 19:07:02 EDT 2021

Hi San and all,

Well in a way WSJT-X is much the same, but different at the same time.  Like in CW you don’t really know where the DX is listening at when he sends “UP”.  As a DXer becomes more advanced one could use CW Skimmer, the bandscope or use the second receiver while carefully tuning to locate where they are receiving.  As you know they can or cannot have a pattern to the next RX frequency they listen on.  However on FT8 you will print them no matter what frequency they are on and visa-versa!  As long as you have the RX bandwidth set to wide filter.  In fact you can move your receive and transmit all over the place and print each other.  Each mode has it’s advantages.  I learn very quickly that if one is going to move up the DXCC ladder they need to be ready on all modes!  There is always that ATNO that comes on using the mode you can’t get one with.  

FT8 Time consuming?  Well it depends on what you are trying to do.  As you go up on the totals like everything else the “pickens” gets slimer over time in each mode.  However for a newbie using FT8 that is Elmered, they can and do work DXCC in less than a few weeks.  In one case I know of in less than a week!  I routinely work 60 stations in one sitting.  Then sometimes I get bored running stations on FT8 and go to SSB or CW.  In the winter months I will go to AM.  Joel has done a few drive-bys on 80m when I am on AM.  

There are several reasons I can think of for the popularity of FT8, than just being a weak signal mode or a station without a good antenna system.  One reason the digital ops have always been more on LOTW than any other mode.  I saw this from the old RTTY days when LOTW came online.  Makes sense since the digital guys are using a computer and don’t fear their use.  Unlike in the old days when RTTY ops were using terminals or the rig’s decoder with keyboard like in the Icom rigs.  BTW, when I started LOTW I was lucky to have 1/3 confirmation rate.  Now I am at 75% confirmation rate!  Wow talk about a change in DXing since LOTW started.  

My comment on “working hard” while getting them into the log was merely my way of humor.  Like many on roundtables and old fart Nets, most do not do digital at all, but always express an opinion that is usually wrong or a half truth!  They  promote digital as merely computers talking to each other.  The best line I love to hear at big gathering/forums, which IMO is totally false>>> “I got on FT8 and went to bed.  The next morning I got up and had worked 100 countries.”  That my friends is FAKE NEWS or as we say here BS!  Could DXCC be achieved in less than a day? I guess anything is possible with a fully automated station, but that would include everything from changing bands, antennas, beam headings, and making sure things like your amplifier is happy.  Not to mention tweaking the software to do this!  As WSJT-X comes out of the box that is not doable!  While one can automate the WSJT-X modes, it is against the ARRL DXCC rules and if you are not starring at the screen there are too many things that can go wrong which may cause you NOT to get in the other station’s log.  IMHO, the number of the ones abusing the system is so low it is hardly worth mentioning.

To make the WSJT-X modes more interesting for me I use JTAlert with WSJT-X which makes all this even more enjoyable.  In some ways it is much like Wack-A-Mole game, I try to clear the board just for fun making contacts or having my own run.  Earl, Joel, and other ADXA members here will tell you that it is much like being on your own DXexpedition in that you are the “wanted” station.  Seems like Indonesia, Japan, and the Philippines will fight over a AR contact!  Even late at night on 15m.  Ditto for Russian states and for a new DXer this is “Too Cool”.  Then there is the info on the new JTA software that is available on the fly.  No where can you hover the cursor and get more useful info!  Like S/N, Country, are they on LOTW, EQSL, what ITU zone, CQ Zone, Grid Square, Distance in miles/km, Bearing, DXCC number, Differential time, etc.  I am sure there are a few I am leaving off.  So for the curious or those that love to study prop, well another very useful tool.  

Still another program I use is Gridtracker that not only shows the signal path, but where exactly your signal is landing.  Now to be honest we really never know the real path our signal takes, but GT is good showing your signal going over the pole into Asia or Russia.  Showing you where that country is without looking it up.  I tried to find a video demoing all three, but all I could find are ones doing setups.  Here is one link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQWWVBysb0  That station must not be using a big antenna as he is mainly seeing only US stations.  I showed a JTA, GT and WSJT-X a few weeks back during a JA opening.  With all these programs one can make them even better over time and do even more useful things.  I am barely touching the tip of the iceberg!  

So there are some more examples of why FT8 is very popular with 70% plus of the ham community and I don’t see it changing with new technology coming online like with the new JTA software.  With every mode, there is an artform to it over time.  I have thousands of FT8 contacts and still learning new tricks nearly every day I am on the air.  

BTW, I do the reverse on the new digital ops if they get to bragging to much on their accomplishments.  I will tell them how lucky they are compared to using CW and more so on the phone modes when it comes to DXing.  I will say something like:  “The DXers at the top worked for the contacts by putting up big antennas and having good technique”.  There is no substitute for those even with WSJT modes.  Still those were better solar cycles for the most part.  Sadly the new hams have never seen and may not ever see those condition in our lifetime.  

Anyway some may find the info useful and others are rolling their eyes by now.  Back to chasing DX on any mode I can find them on!  😊  

73 de jay/w5jay..

From: Sandy Hutson <k5yy1 at cox.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 8:42 AM
To: jayw5jay <jayw5jay at cox.net>; Dennis Schaefer <dennisw5rz at gmail.com>; WB5JJJ <wb5jjj at gmail.com>
Cc: ADXA List <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Good comment and surely the ADXA FT mode users know exactly what you are talking about... 

Jay:

  Great experience Jay in trying to guess where to call etc to work a station. Usually on CW and SSB we can hear what they are saying or we know from experience of decades of working DX on SSB/CW/RTTY/PSK to call up etc. If calling on their frequency you will hear an “UP UP” reply by several DXers. Hi   Also helps sometimes to have DX Summit or some other QSO spotting website to inform you before you call. But at least you learn within a minute as to when-where-how to call. Depends on the DX you are chasing and the size of the pileup calling. Guess FT8/FT4 is just a bit more time consuming on what to do in so many instances and let the software decide what to do and hope it matches the DX on the other end. 😊….  I know different software updates are changing the FT8 system of our hobby and can be confusing to relearn some things.. At least on SSB and CW, I can hear what I have known for decades. 😁

Some big time FT8 user friend of mine mentioned in the past to me that “FT8 is a defacto mode to fall on, rather than a very weak signal mode”…  so true.  As someone said a couple of years ago on our ADXA site when the non-RTTY digital modes were beginning, some guys getting up in the morning from a good night’s sleep found out that a few stations had claimed they had a contact with them during the night. Now THAT is so crazy and not ham radio as I have known it for almost 65 years and 70 years if you include my SWLing  in the late 40s – mid 1957… At least our ADXA FT8 DXers know so much more than the average FT8 guy and can get help from our ‘gurus’ like you Jay.. Thanks for your assist to so many guys with your comments.  See you at OWS on August 28th… can’t wait and sure hope the ADXA can squeeze in a quarterly meeting in Sept or October. My fingers are crossed that our 60th High School reunion will come off OK in mid September in Stuttgart.  Will be the last for so many of us with about 50% having passed on. ☹ 

73 and stay cool and pray that all our ADXA members stay safe during this Delta variant time..

San  - now time to check DX Summit and see what’s going on!! HI HI

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From: jayw5jay <mailto:jayw5jay at cox.net> 
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:35 PM
To: Dennis Schaefer <mailto:dennisw5rz at gmail.com> ; WB5JJJ <mailto:wb5jjj at gmail.com> 
Cc: ADXA List <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> 
Subject: Re: [ADXA] HK0/HK3X 12M FT8

If I'm just bored I like to go up into the nosebleed area like above 2.1 kilohertz to call CQ. When you use WSJT's "fake it mode" it will adjust the TX frequency so you're not only cleaner, but more centered into the passband.  

Many times I will see somebody I want to contact with and call them above that frequency and get no answer. Then I will go slightly below or  above where they are transmitting. If I still get no response after many repeated tries I might even try zero beating their frequency in case they're using a super narrow filter like 50 hertz. In my humble opinion using that narrow of a bandwidth doesn't help on the WSJT modes. In the old days of RTTY and PSK modes it did help.

Last night I forget the call sign, but it was a new one for me on that mode. No matter what I did I just couldn't make contact with them. Finally I tried zero beating which is kind of a bad habit to some on the FT8 mode and they came right back to me with a report.

When I hear others talk about is his computers talking to computers, it sure seems like I do a lot of work to get some into the log. LOL. 

By the way I have always used 3.6KHz on the Icom for receive and 4KHz on the SDR.  Both have copied other stations at -24 S/N on all bands. So I see no reason to go narrower in bandwidth since I'm going at the theoretical limits of S/N for FT8.

73 de Jay

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Dennis Schaefer <dennisw5rz at gmail.com <mailto:dennisw5rz at gmail.com> > 

Date: 8/9/21 8:14 PM (GMT-06:00) 

To: WB5JJJ <wb5jjj at gmail.com <mailto:wb5jjj at gmail.com> > 

Cc: ADXA List <adxa at mailman.qth.net <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> > 

Subject: Re: [ADXA] HK0/HK3X 12M FT8 

George and John (BHS) have refined their FT8 operating habits and both have impressive records to show for it.  In fact, both have given a lot of help to folks like the one I was talking about who keeps his BW at 2.1 Khz.  Also, people like me……

Dennis

On Aug 9, 2021, at 6:47 PM, WB5JJJ <wb5jjj at gmail.com <mailto:wb5jjj at gmail.com> > wrote:

I'm going to add my 2p to the topic for a totally non-technical view.

I have my BW set to 3.6 because it more accurately relates to my abilities to work the so-called "weak" stations.  

If I see someone say at -20, I know my chances of working him are either slim or none.  Narrowing my BW would not help him receive me at all as I figure his BW is also set wide.  I'm probably down further in the mud on his side for sure since I've only got 5 elements at 35' on 6m and ~90w.  One thing that is a major factor is QSB and propagation one direction or the other which adds a whole other level of what's going on, or not.  Just saying.  

But Joel's elaborate description is 100% on point.  I know some folks that need to see it, mostly new hams that have never experienced a solar cycle yet when things really get wild for all bands/modes, I can't wait.  It will probably be my last one, I hope it's better than predicted as I want to "go out with a bang".  

73's

George - WB5JJJ

4

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 6:05 PM Sandy Hutson <k5yy1 at cox.net <mailto:k5yy1 at cox.net> > wrote:

I have clearly stated in the past year, that the -5 to 0 dB range on being heard on CW would depend on narrowing the bandwidth down from 2 or 1.5 kc to perhaps 800-500 and for sure improve hearing at 300 cycles. No issues with that. And the same on the SSB side of the banter. Go from 2.8-2.5 bandwidth to 2.0 and you can hear weaker signals better and if you go to 1.5 width on SSB, you can hear but, yes, weaker, but you can hear. So, when someone posts a +dB in spotting a station on FT8, I KNOW they can be heard on properly bandwidth CW and even SSB at times. I did not mean to delve into the deep side of a discussion of a guy being heard if he went to CW or SSB on CE0… IIWII 

And we are not sure what width the FT8 reporting station may be using but if they report hearing in the 0 to + dB area, I can hear them on CW very narrow width. Have done it in the past and I do use the reported dB from DX Summit or on the ADXA site as to if better than 0 dB… I will not guess what bandwidth they are using but the narrower you go, you can expect the signal to go down but readability go up many times.  I do not try to explain the FT8 system per se, just know what dB report can or can not be heard on CW.. Everyone knows that a narrowing of the bandwidth of a station on CW or even SSB will lessen the strength and you gotta listen a bit harder, but you can remove the “side” stronger QSO crud going on and maybe copy a CW station at a 519 but not a great QSO at 279 with loud side chatter, clutter or steady key down audio from an idiot. And on CW you can go to the opposite sideband, like from listening in the USB position to the LSB position, etc etc etc… To each his own way of tuning.  

Nuff for now. Still wish the guy would go to CW at least while on CE0 but appears he is FT8 only.
San

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From: w5zn at w5zn.org <mailto:w5zn at w5zn.org> 
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 5:31 PM
To: ADXA List <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> 
Subject: Re: [ADXA] HK0/HK3X 12M FT8

OK folks.....let's all understand what the "dB" SNR reading on an FT8 signal means. It means NOTHING...absolutely NOTHING!!!. It is a signal to noise ratio however it takes in to account the signal compared to the noise of the entire bandwidth your radio is set to plus all of the other signals in that bandwidth.

You can actually change that number on your radio and make it extremely higher if you want to brag (DX'ers brag???) about how strong someone is at your station by running a simple test to prove the point. The next time you see a signal that is -15 to -20 dB, reduce your bandwidth to 500 Hz or so and center it on the station you are copying. For example, if the station has a DF of 1250 Hz, reduce the filter bandwidth and then center it at 1250 Hz and see what happens!!! That "dB" number will jump up to 0 or plus something. Its simple math and the reason we reduce our filter bandwidths on CW.

So, it is a meaningless number. If a station is at 0 dB  you may hear the signal or you may not. Don't hang your hat on that number. In fact, completely IGNORE it!!!

Why doesn't that station go down to CW or SSB?? Several reasons that may include:

1. They don't know CW and don't care to learn it (and never will) but love amateur radio and want to get on the air.

2. On SSB they "could" work more stations if the op was good and the pileup were tame. Most likely it won't be and the op doesn't want to attempt to manage an unruly pileup on SSB. On FT8 the op can easily manage it as he/she wants. Not all DX ops are good pileup managers.

FT8 is good for amateur radio. All of us "old dogs" like me can complain all we want but the reason there is so much activity on FT8 is it is an easy mode to learn and to get on the air with. That means more activity and more DX.

I personally know of three hams right here in Arkansas that never had any interest in HF and DX but they tried FT8, actually got on the air somewhere other than a 2 meter repeater or the 75 meter morning medical grumbling frequency and have now completed a DXCC. Two of them are joining ADXA.....another PLUS!!!! They're consumed with HF and DX'ing now.

Enough of my sermon for the day.......the ADXA offering plate will be passed shortly !!!!

You all know what to do, regardless of the mode or band........GET IN THERE AND WORK 'EM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

73 Joel W5ZN

CW Forever, DX Forever and ANY MODE forever if I can use it to work a new one and beat out N5ZM in a pileup!!

On 2021-08-09 16:00, Sandy Hutson wrote:

You do have to wait when he is in the 0 to +++ dB range of audio and still not going to SSB or CW where he could be easily heard and worked. Sorry for those not on FT8 who have to wonder when he will change modes, if he does. 12m band would be an ATNO for many ADXA members.

Stay safe and cool this week!

San YY

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From: John McKinnie <mailto:kt4ac at att.net> 
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 4:46 PM
To: ADXA List <mailto:adxa at mailman.qth.net> 
Subject: [ADXA] HK0/HK3X 12M FT8

HK0/HK3X is on 12 M FT8.  He is about +5 to +7 here.

No real waiting to work him.

John

KT4AC

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