[ADXA] Shame of US Radio Amateurs - 60 Meters

Thu Nov 19 14:33:43 EST 2020

Thanks, Jay - interesting and tells me that different rigs handle things in
different ways.  I don't have an Icom rig on the desk right now.  If I look
at the hard-coded (and unchangeable as far as I can tell) memories on the
Yaesu fT-991, the frequency choices display the center channel freq.
Limiting myself to studying just one channel, (5358.5)  the dial on the
Yaesu shows 5358.5 but the carrier frequency is 5.357.  No problem once you
understand, and listening on another rig confirms that voice SSB
transmissions are where they should be - carrier on 5.357.  If I try to
transmit on FT8 on this rig (into a dummy load, of course), I cannot
transmit at all.  I have everything turned off, split, Fake It, etc.  I set
my audio pip to 1500 and the rig simply won't transmit.  It keys but no
audio.  Audio interfacing etc, is OK, I confirmed on other bands.  This may
be because I am using USB-D mode but it is apparently a firmware thing.  If
I pick up the mic and talk, on USB mode, I am transmitting where I should
be.
I just tried CW because I doubted if I could put a signal on the center
channel, and I could not select CW.  When I was selecting USB-D mode with
WSJT-X, I was apparently taking the rig out of memory mode and was in
"receive only".  So - it looks like CW transmission is also prohibited by
the firmware.  It will only allow USB voice transmission from the
microphone and nothing else, with a frequency display that indicates the
approximate center of the voice channel.

Now the Kenwood - it's memory channel reads 5.357.  I can transmit USB
voice just fine with the carrier on 5.357.  I haven't tried FT8 on this rig
- no interface hooked up.  I can transmit CW on the Kenwood and can use the
RIT to put the CW carrier exactly on 5358.5.  I might try that sometime,
just to know I did it.

Just seeing how the two rigs handle the dial display is enlightening.  I
think FT8 on 60 meters is hopeless on the FT-991 and I'm not even going to
try with the Kenwood although I suspect it would work.

On a totally empty band right now, I heard an fT8 signal.  The audio
frequency was 662 on the waterfall with the dial on 5.357, so he was
actually transmitting on 5357.66, almost a full khz below the center of the
channel.  He was the only signal on the band.  Joel is right that we really
need to know what we are doing here.  I'm going to leave it alone.  I'm not
even going to think about it anymore.  I"m not going to try an interface
with the Kenwood to see if it would work in case I ever needed it.   Nope.
Too many other things to try that are not of dubious legality!

73,
Dennis

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 12:09 PM jayw5jay <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:

> Hi Dennis last night I spent about 4 hours experimenting and reading
> everything I could about this subject. Like you my head was spinning after
> doing the math and watching the vfo change frequency when one would click
> on the transmit cursor in wsjt-x.
>
> I am using the fake it mode under the radio tab. In the wsjt-x program it
> has a hard limit 200 Hertz on the low end. However the high-end is not
> restricted at all because the vfo is shifted to compensate wherever your
> transmitted cursor is landing.
>
>  Just to test my theory I put my Icom on and it has a has a hard upper
> limit of 2.9 k. That is far as it will go no matter what menu setting you
> use. Still I could transmit double that bandwidth. In other words I can put
> the transmit cursor over 4K and still transmit full power on a rig that is
> only capable of going out the 2.9 kilohertz maximum.
>
> Then I spent another three hours trying to form a decent email over all
> this and finally gave up.
>
> My head is still spinning, but it is interesting to experiment and try and
> learn. I guess that's the only good thing that's come out of this exercise.
>
> Good to see everyone so active on here. 73 Jay
>
>
>
> Sent from my Galaxy
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Dennis Schaefer <dennisw5rz at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/20 8:08 AM (GMT-06:00)
> To: Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net>
> Cc: w5zn at w5zn.org, adxa <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [ADXA] Shame of US Radio Amateurs - 60 Meters
>
> Jay,
>
> Yes, it is very confusing.  I’ve reluctantly begun to read a bit about it
> again and although bw is limited to 2.8 Khz, they specify that a digital
> signal should be 1.5 Khz above the carrier frequency to be in the center of
> the passband, but I’m not sure anyone would know where your carrier is if
> it’s suppressed enough.  It seems clear that the letter of the FCC order
> specifies that a digital signal needs to be in the center of the passband.
> So a big honking Pactor signal can take up the whole 2.8 Khz and be OK but
> 4 or 5 PSK31 or FT8 signals can take up a fraction of that and not be OK.
> I doubt if any citations would be issued as long as you are within 1.4 Khz
> up and down from the channel center frequency, but I’m not willing to take
> that chance.  In case anyone is interested, here’s what the ARRL says,
> regarding the FCC’s Report and Order:
>
>
> “The Report and Order also allows the use of modes that comply with
> emission designator 2K80J2D, which includes any digital mode with a
> bandwidth of 2.8 kHz or less whose technical characteristics have been
> documented publicly, per Part 97.309(4) of the FCC Rules. Such modes would
> include PACTOR I, II or III, 300-baud packet, MFSK, MT63, Contestia,
> Olivia, DominoEX and others.
>
> On 60 meters hams are restricted to only one signal per channel and
> automatic operation is not permitted. In addition, the FCC continues to
> require that all digital transmissions be centered on the channel-center
> frequencies, which the Report and Order defines as being 1.5 kHz above the
> suppressed carrier frequency of a transceiver operated in the Upper
> Sideband (USB) mode. This is typically the frequency shown on the frequency
> display.”
>
>
> When they say “hams are restricted to only one signal per channel” that
> implies there should be one CW or digital signal only in the center of the
> passband.  Maybe they mean individual hams can only have one signal at a
> time, so that would be different.  That would seem to preclude F/H Fox
> operation, though, with its multiple streams.
>
>
> You could set your dial to 5357.1 and audio to 1400 Hz and be OK, or you
> could set the dial to 5357 and audio to 1500.  Both would yield the same
> result except for the suppressed carrier.  Your signal would be on 5358.5,
> the legal center channel frequency.  At least that’s how it seems to me,
> and that’s what my FT-991 and WSJT-X were not willing to do.  My head hurts
> - time for another cup of coffee :)
>
>
> 73,
>
> Dennis
>
> On Nov 19, 2020, at 3:05 AM, Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Dennis and Everyone,
> If the mode being used stays inside the 2.8 KHz USB channel, is it OK for
> modes like FT8 signals to use the same channel on 60m as long as they stay
> inside the 2.8 KHz USB channel?
>
> The ARRL web site only mentions two digital modes PSK31 and Pactor III.  I
> am assuming Pactor III is used because of emergency traffic?  They do
> mention using PSK31 and setting it right in the center of passband of 1500
> Hz.  Really that is not center,  1400 Hz would be.  I guess they figured
> close enough.
>
> FT8 is 50 Hz wide and so there could be a lot of stations on and still
> stay inside the 2.8 KHz bandwidth, is that legal?  I can't seem to find the
> right answer on the web.
>
> I've spent hours trying to find an answer to this question.  I am not sure
> why as my WSJT-X 2.2.2 doesn't have 60m on the list.  Plus I don't have an
> antenna up these days for 60m.  I guess I am technically curious more than
> anything.
>
> While watching channel 3 tonight, I didn't see any FT8 stations outside
> the USB channel 3.  Pretty neat was seeing a weak lone CW signal in between
> channels, not inside one of the US channels.  I wasn't able to zero beat
> fast enough to hear who they were.  Other interesting tidbits was seeing
> Radar signatures coming and going while scanning!
>
> 60m is a great band!  Shame folks are misusing it.
>
> 73 de jay/w5jay..
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On
> Behalf Of Dennis Schaefer
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 9:33 PM
> To: w5zn at w5zn.org
> Cc: adxa <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [ADXA] Shame of US Radio Amateurs - 60 Meters
>
> Joel,
>
> Very good comments - people need to be more careful about this stuff.    I
> worked VP6R on practically every mode and band and decided to try them on
> 60M FT8 on the last day or so.  I normally use a Yaesu FT-991 for my
> infrequent HF FT8 efforts.  I have flushed most of the gory details out of
> my memory banks, but I remember reading and studying about things like
> whether a stated frequency was the carrier frequency or the center of a 3
> Khz channel width.  Both methods are  used.  Any signal must be in the
> center of the 3 Khz channel (once you figure out where it actually is) so
> FT8 F/H mode is technically illegal any way you look at it.  More than one
> signal in the channel is too many.
>
> CW is doable, and SSB is easy, but digital modes are hard to figure out.
> However, as much as I struggled with it, I could not make my FT-991 would
>  transmit on a legal frequency for digital modes on 60 meters.  I’ll have
> to revisit that someday and see if I was right, but I discussed it with
> John Evans, who is an FT8 guru, and I think we both reached the same
> conclusion.   I tried my Kenwood TS-590S and it seems there was a frequency
> problem with it also.   I think part of the problem was that WSJT-X would
> not allow me to set a frequency that would result in a legal transmit
> frequency with the FT-991.  Maybe WSJT-X frequencies assumed carrier
> frequency and the FT-991 dial read center channel frequencies.  Both were
> designed to “protect you from yourself” and ended up being incompatible.
>   Perhaps I could have done it by turning off CAT control - it’s been too
> long to remember if I tried that.
>
> Makes my head hurt to think about it.  I’ll stick to 6 and 2 meters for
> FT8, with an occasional foray onto the HF bands (but not 60 meters).
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2020, at 9:42 AM, w5zn at w5zn.org wrote:
>
>
> Greetings ADXA Folks,
>
>
> 7Q7RU appeared on 60 meters FT8 last night with a nice signal and several
> USA stations are in their log. Normally, this would be a good thing however
> last night was an embarrassment and a shame for amateur radio in the United
> States. Why? Because 7Q7RU was operating on 5354 KHz and that is NOT a
> frequency authorized for use in the USA. I don't know if 7Q7RU is aware of
> this or not, nor do I know if they are even allowed to operate from Malawi
> on 5357 KHz which is where US radio amateurs can operate FT8. I was
> monitoring 5354 KHz and the first two stations I saw calling are, to be
> blunt, stations who do not care about the FCC rules and in fact don't care
> about any rules as one of those stations was disqualified from the DXCC
> program some years ago.
>
>
> Sadly, the good followed the bad and eventually a number of other US hams
> began calling on 5354 KHz and the ones I saw calling should have known
> better. I was in an email exchange with a buddy of mine down in south Texas
> about it and sadly even he, after a while, said "to hell with it, everyone
> else is calling so I'm going to as well". I told him that wasn't the case
> because I wasn't calling and did not intend to unless they move up to 5357
> KHz.
>
>
> So what makes this particularly egregious? This is a shared band. Amateur
> radio is not a primary authorized user on 60 meters. Now, you may say
> "well, I don't hear anyone else there so the primary user's must not be
> using it". That is an extremely flawed position because the band is in fact
> used by the United States government and they are watching us!
>
>
> Allow me to give a little background. As I have stated before, the United
> States was the first country in the world to obtain authorization to use 5
> MHz. I was ARRL First Vice President at the time and Jim Haynie, W5JBP, was
> ARRL President. The FCC came on board with allowing amateur radio use
> rather quickly however the National Telecommunications and Information
> Administration (NTIA), the Executive Branch agency that is principally
> responsible for advising the President on telecommunications and
> information policy issues, was staunchly opposed to it due to ongoing use
> by government. The process drug on for several years and finally we were
> able to obtain the five discreet frequency channels with the power limit we
> have today.
>
>
> Now, you are also aware that during the World Radio Communication
> conference in 2015 (WRC-15) that amateur radio obtain a small allocation at
> 5 MHz which the United States has not yet adopted. We are not allowed to
> use the new WRC15 allocation until the FCC authorizes it. Let me give you a
> bit more "inside info". ARRL was the driving force within IARU at WRC-15 to
> make this happen but the United States government refused, on several
> occasions, to sponsor the agenda proposal or to support it. Guess which
> IARU society was able to convince their government to sponsor the item and
> get it on the agenda.....CUBA! Yea that's right, our own government
> wouldn't support the effort.
>
>
> Now, think about this for a second. The United States government did not
> want radio amateurs on 5 MHz. They were opposed to a 5 MHz allocation for
> the amateur radio service at WRC15. They still have NOT adopted the WRC15
> allocation at 5 MHz so now amateur radio operators in the USA are giving
> the US government a good reason to NOT do so! And to top it off it is not a
> bunch of unruly CB operators who obtain an amateur radio license doing
> this.....it is a group of well season Morse examined Extra Class DX'ers
> doing so!
>
>
> Shame on them. The 5 MHz amateur allocation in the United States could
> well be in jeopardy.
>
>
> So, is there any good news in all of this? Yes there is and ADXA folks are
> to be commended. We refrained from the temptation to violate the amateur
> radio rules. I did not see any of you calling. That takes a good bit of
> will power and also shows the integrity each of you have as a radio
> amateur, and DX'er and an ADXA member.
>
>
> Keep it up, ADXA !!!
>
>
> 73 Joel W5ZN
>
> ADXA President
>
>
> p.s. 60 meter contacts are not allowed for any DXCC credit so you really
> didn't miss anything!!!
>
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