[ADXA] FT8 future and good things I have to agree with about some FT8

Sun Jun 30 14:20:32 EDT 2019

Jay. 
   I do agree 100% that with SS cycle 25 being predicted worse than 24 which had NO F2 on 6m at all, and with the long haul DX seen on 28 and 24mc being minimal, and 21-18mc variable from day to day, that will leave just 40-17m to do the most work of supplying DXCC to so many newcomers. That would not be fair to be compared to what so many of us had to work with, using long haul F2 upper HF bands for decades. 
   So FT8 does give a younger DXer segment a chance to succeed and not lose interest in ham radio. They need to see their country totals increase with a subaudible FT8 mode from time to time. It’s always been there (-25 to -10 dB signals) but we just could not hear them on CW and SSB before the JT65 and FT8 and now FT4 days. 
   The only thing I do NOT want to see is all DXpeditions continuing to use FT8 50-60% of the time, even with audible signals present. Then SSB, RTTY and CW guys would slowly disappear and that is not fair to them. Just want the semi-rare and rare DX and future new DXCC countries to have good operators that DO copy and know Morse code and give a chance to others and to use operators that can do SSB at rate of 3-4 a minute. I do that on SSB on DXpeditions I’ve been on, and SO MANY, MANY guys are great at that rate for 3-4 straight hours. They are not rare. So when signals are “in”, let some team op make those great rates. CW guys can also do 4-5 a minute, give them a chance when signals ARE audible. That is my only fair request and I am not alone.  If signals are way down, do all the FT8 they want. Do not contribute to DXpeditions that are not fair to all. Sure wish Dom’s team would have made a FEW RTTY QSOs but NONE, and they were strong during FT8 sessions, well into the + dB range. RTTY guys (not on FT8) were neglected. Not the spirit of ham radio. Hell yes, it’s their money, their time, their work and fatigue but still there are obligations for all DXpeditions to be fair and supply the operators necessary to do a good job.
   This is my last comment on the FT8 issue, the good, the bad and the ugly parts. Sounds like a Clint Eastwood movie. LOL
San

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steven Rutledge
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 12:24 PM
To: jayw5jay
Cc: ADXA
Subject: Re: [ADXA] FT8 Automatic, Unattended Operation

Good points Jay!

QQ

On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:21 AM, jayw5jay <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:
Thanks Joel for the more detailed information than I provided last night. I was too tired to look up that guy's call as Kathy and I were down in Fort Smith.

Really I think it's counterproductive to do anyway even if it was within the rules. Plus hams being so cheap I could not imagine some spinning extra money to make their software do this. I think it was around a hundred bucks or less to add to the existing wsjt-x software. If they do they're just too lazy to be ham radio operators in general. In my humble opinion the biggest misunderstanding among the various ham radio groups is they think the computer is doing all the work.  You still have to watch the screen if you're going to be effective in this mode. Sometimes I run stations and other times I pick and choose who I want to work.

Another sweet memory that I have is when Kathy introduced Joe Taylor to the QRP ARCI group in Dayton Ohio. Bless her heart she really didn't know who he was at the time. I would have been extremely nervous introducing him, but she didn't miss a Beat. After his Forum he was very approachable. What a Class Act!

Really in some ways I do have a love-hate relationship with ft8. However to be brutally honest it is added much needed blood to ham radio. In fact it may be look back upon as saving ham radio because these current propagation conditions we are in now.  A lot of the guys would have given up long ago and just sold off their gear and moved on to other Hobbies.

73 jay

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: w5zn at w5zn.org 
Date: 6/30/19 4:09 AM (GMT-06:00) 
To: Pat Patterson <patw5vy at gmail.com> 
Cc: ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net> 
Subject: [ADXA] FT8 Automatic, Unattended Operation 

Thanks again Pat, Jay and Steve. Appreciate the info. As you note, apparently SQ9FVE has modified the open source FT8 software to permit fully automatic FT8 QSO's on what he calls "an experimental basis". Please understand he is in Europe and subject to the amateur radio rules in his country and not governed by the FCC and Part 97 rules as we are here in the U.S. It also appears the WSJT-x team is aware of this, disapprove, and seriously watching this development.
I want to CAUTION all of our ADXA members about this. There are some very strict and straight forward rules in Part 97 that radio amateurs in the U.S. must follow regarding automatic, unattended operation. Do NOT fall into this trap!
I would also advise you to use only the official software releases from the WSJT-x team who I can assure you will not allow any part of the software operation to violate Part 97. As individual licensed radio amateurs we need to follow the rules, PERIOD! If you want to experiment outside these rules then there is a formal process to follow to obtain permission to do so however I doubt any of our ADXA folks are, or will be, pursuing such.
FT8 is a good mode. There is way too much negative flap about it. There are no petitions planned or pending before the FCC to eliminate CW or any other mode currently authorized so if it poses a threat to an existing mode it will be from a popularity perspective rather than legal. Amateur radio should be proud to have a Nobel Laureate among it's ranks who is giving back to what got him started in physics as a kid in the first place.....and for FREE!!! Joe Taylor is a personal friend of mine. When my corporate office was in Princeton I spent many nights at Joe and Marietta's home for a nice dinner. They are some of the most friendly and pleasant people I have met in amateur radio and frankly it is very painful to see the criticism he has received from hams!
Bottom line is this ADXA folks - follow the rules, operate a clean station, follow good operating practice and by all means GET ON THE AIR AND WORK SOME DX on whatever mode you like!
Thanks again to all for the info.
73 Joel W5ZN

On 2019-06-29 21:37, Pat Patterson wrote:
During his CQ DX Hall of Fame induction speech at the Dayton DX Dinner, Joe Taylor mentioned that the WSJT-x Team had been reviewing logs from PSKReporter and had found that a handful of folks had implemented some key stroke automation (external to WSJT-X software) which could enable automatic, unattended, operation.  He said "they will be contacted" and that they may add some new logic to WSJT-x to detect such activity and block it. 

Something new to deal with from a license enforcement perspective and Awards program violation. 

73,
Pat, W5VY

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 9:28 PM Steven Rutledge <rutl7340 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

I was going to say the same thing Joel.  At least that is the way Taylor's software works.  There could be a hack but the software was designed to prevent such illegal practices. 

QQ

On Jun 29, 2019, at 8:54 PM, w5zn at w5zn.org wrote:
OK I'm calling bullshit on this....sorry folks that's what it is. Unattended automatic QSO's are not legal except under some special applications. FT8 is NOT fully automatic. If you set your system to call CQ and someone answers you, you have to double click and select the station you want to respond to and work BEFORE it will start its auto QSO message sequence.
So, how are these stations actually "going to bed" or "watching a movie" and working stations unattended????? The software does not permit this.
So, tell me what's really going on here. If I'm missing something please enlighten me, otherwise what you are being told is pure BS.
ZN

On 2019-06-29 16:31, Rick Roderick via ADXA wrote:
Jay, my parents rarely took pictures when I was growing up. I'd give anything to have pictures of my first station, built with no money, jimmy rigged everything. I didn't even own a PL-259 until I was a General and a year after I'd been a Ham. I hard wired everything. I was on the Razorback net one day and said I had no place to buy a PL-259 and a guy named George, a WA5, I can see his face but can't recall the call, sent me a PL-259 in a small sack with the mailing address label hanging off the side to me. That was my first PL-259. Oh, those were wonderful days looking  back. 

On FT8, I go to a lot of hamfests 
 as you know, on almost every weekend somewhere. I often hear folks say how they go to bed running FT8 and wake up to see what they've worked. I hear folks say they go watch a movie, they go mow the lawn, then come back in to see what they've worked. That, plus he DXer cluster, makes it so easy nowadays, and people still whine about working DX? Give me a break. Weenies....

73
Rick - K5UR 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 28, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:
Rick what would be cool is to show off some pictures of that early station, if you have any of them??

That would make a great ADXA article for sure.  You may have already done this before?

73 de jay/w5jay..

From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of Jay Bromley
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 1:04 PM
To: k5ur at aol.com; rutl7340 at bellsouth.net; k5yy1 at cox.net
Cc: adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [ADXA] China on 6m?

What happened to the setup?  

Not too long ago ran into a Michigan AM group on 6m AM.  I think they hung out around 50.400?

73 de jay.. 

From: k5ur at aol.com <k5ur at aol.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:58 AM
To: rutl7340 at bellsouth.net; k5yy1 at cox.net
Cc: jayw5jay at cox.net; w5zn at w5zn.org; adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [ADXA] China on 6m?

Steve, ole Ted, K8NA (SK) was a buddy of mine back in the day. 

I started on 6 meters AM (yes, on AM) back in the late 60's. My first home made amp was a pair of 4-400's laid out on the floor in my bedroom. Didn't even have it in a cabinet. My parents got calls from miles away that I was causing TVI, and I was because we were on the fringe of LR TV reception in Russellville. Man, I made those tubes glow, but I sure had a solid power supply. :) Think about that a KW of AM on 6 meters. I subsequently had to get off the air on Sunday and Wednesday because I got into churches' PA systems. 

73
K5UR
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Rutledge <rutl7340 at bellsouth.net>
To: HamOP <k5yy1 at cox.net>
Cc: Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net>; w5zn at w5zn.org <w5zn at w5zn.org>; k5ur at aol.com <k5ur at aol.com>; adxa at mailman.qth.net <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2019 11:41 am
Subject: Re: [ADXA] China on 6m?
Stories.  Got my first beam up in MI, TH5.  Worked DXCC plus more on CC R5 vertical.  I am a CW op, prop was good, 10 F2 starting to happen.

My pals left and I started tuning on 10 with TS-830, I miss that receiver.  Anyway, at about .650 I hear station calling CQ.  I called him, QTH "Bird Island."  Not sure where that was but VP8 call.  I got on DX repeater and told K8NA.  He exclaimed "that's South Georgia!" 

When I went back to the freq, it was a giant hetrodyne.

Another time in R7 there was T33 op.  I tried for days on CW, no amp.  I got up in middle of night last day, worked him.  Cats came with note, "last QSO."

Finally, arrived in Memphis, 96, no antennas.  Heard Island on.  Tossed up 30 meter dipole about ten ' off ground.  Almost wore out TS850.  Last day, Sunday, wife said let's go for walk.  I said I'm going to call one last time and forget it.  Bang!  Good Q.

There is something to be said for perseverance.

Steve, QQ

On Jun 28, 2019, at 10:53 AM, HamOP <k5yy1 at cox.net> wrote:
Hey, when prop is down and nothing of note to work, get on OUR ADXA chat page! HI  Great fun forum full of ideas, etc.
Gotta run errands.. 73 all, 
san

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jay Bromley
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:50 AM
To: w5zn at w5zn.org; k5ur at aol.com
Cc: adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [ADXA] China on 6m?

I bet there are a ton of them we haven't heard B4  😊

73 de jay..

From: w5zn at w5zn.org <w5zn at w5zn.org> 
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:48 AM
To: k5ur at aol.com
Cc: ejj at suddenlink.net; jayw5jay at cox.net; adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [ADXA] China on 6m?

Is it time now to "unzip" and start telling DX stories?????  :-)))
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 28, 2019, at 9:50 AM, Rick Roderick - K5UR - aol address via ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
I worked China, BA4SI, and BV also, on 6 meters a few years ago, human to human, none of that digital stuff where you can't hear the station. (hi). 

73
Rick - K5UR
-----Original Message-----
From: EJ <ejj at suddenlink.net>
To: 'Jay Bromley' <jayw5jay at cox.net>; adxa <adxa at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2019 8:27 am
Subject: Re: [ADXA] China on 6m?
Good one.  I saw some west coast guys posted him last night and a VK was copying KA9CFD.  Have to listen this evening to see if they are in there again.  I got in a little later and didn't hear anything good

EJ K5EJ

From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net [mailto:adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jay Bromley
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 8:07 PM
To: adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: [ADXA] China on 6m?

Guys this seems to be real.  I am pointed in the right direction and printing out BA4SI on 6m FT8.  Even on that mode it is hard for me to believe.  Sadly I don't have enough power for the BA4 to see me!  ☹

I was telling Bill K5FUV that I was seeing some countries all over the UK and now in the far east.  

That does it, the manual on the 7 element M2 is on the bench and been looking at 6m amps, hi.

BTW, he is a -17 on me right now.  Has been as high as -12

73 de jay/w5jay..

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