[ADXA] FT8 Robots a no-no
BILL KENNAMER
k5fuv at prodigy.net
Thu Aug 22 21:29:28 EDT 2019
3CX3000 is a great tube, other than being too much power. There’s a guy in JA that builds a nice auto tune that goes from off to 5kw up the pipe in 5 seconds. Only cost $10,000.
K5FUV
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
On Thursday, August 22, 2019, 8:04 PM, Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:
#yiv8184012612 #yiv8184012612 -- _filtered #yiv8184012612 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8184012612 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv8184012612 #yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612MsoNormal, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612MsoNormal, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 a:link, #yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8184012612 a:visited, #yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal0, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal0, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612yahoo-quoted-begin, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612yahoo-quoted-begin, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612yahoo-quoted-begin {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal0, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal0, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msochpdefault, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msochpdefault, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612msohyperlink {}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612emailstyle18 {}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612emailstyle19 {}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal1, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal1, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal2, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal2, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal2 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612msohyperlink1 {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal01, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal01, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal01 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msonormal02, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msonormal02, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msonormal02 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612emailstyle181 {font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612emailstyle191 {font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;}#yiv8184012612 p.yiv8184012612msochpdefault1, #yiv8184012612 li.yiv8184012612msochpdefault1, #yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8184012612 span.yiv8184012612EmailStyle36 {font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;}#yiv8184012612 .yiv8184012612MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8184012612 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8184012612 div.yiv8184012612WordSection1 {}#yiv8184012612
Oh BTW, I always loved tubes that could be rebuilt and I think the 3CX3000 is one of them? I think it is also instant on filiments as well. Except for the power gain being too high on a commercial made amplifier, that would make a super nice RTTY amp. I guess a DIY guy would be OK however as long as he/she abided by the rules in their country.
Sure makes the 8877 or the 4CX1000/1400 look tender by comparison. 😊
73 de w5jay/jay..
From: BILL KENNAMER <k5fuv at prodigy.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 5:59 PM
To: Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net>; 'David Norris' <k5uz at icloud.com>
Cc: adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [ADXA] FT8 Robots a no-no
I can’t think of any way to do a reliable check on this through LOTW, anymore than I can think of how one would check for 3CX3000 amps, which are also against the rules.
Compliance will have to be voluntary, just as with most other DXCC rules. I still managed to catch more than a few violators in my day.
73
K5FUV
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
On Thursday, August 22, 2019, 4:46 PM, Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:
Dave thank you for the response!
I can only think of one thing that might throw a wrench into this. While writing routines in LOTW to hunt these evil doers down might sound easy to do, there is a concern I have. One logging program had the ability to do auto uploads to LOTW. Within days the whole LOTW got behind like it did many years ago when they were running tape drives. So it is now recommend or was we do batch uploads. As you know we can now check on LOTW progress via it’s que. During Contest season, it can and does fall behind, but has been manageable. Without careful working with the LOTW maintenance team (they would have to be involved big time) and routines run could cause LOTW to be even slower. During contest season, this could be huge issue. You would have to look at all databases unless you did single lookups. A single lookup or a few would require the large database lookups. That is a lot of data to be process and I am not sure LOTW is up to the task, IMHO.
BTW, I have worked a ton of European hams and never found one that stayed on the band more than I did, hi.
Anyway appreciate your response, but to be honest think we need to move towards more positive efforts in ham radio and forget the malcontents. That is only my opinion and YMWV. I have no dog in this fight and hope in the end the press will get out from the ARRL and the problem will go away.
Life is way too short for us not to have fun in the hobby! 73 de jay/w5jay..
From: David Norris <k5uz at icloud.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 4:11 PM
To: Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net>
Cc: w5zn at w5zn.org; adxa at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [ADXA] FT8 Robots a no-no
Jay,
There are some foreign ops that are doing this. Not everyone has our sense of FairPlay and in some cultures, cheating is rampant and quite acceptable. Robotic contacts are what we are wanting to mitigate. We have identified a few of these stations and the uploads indicate long term continuous operating.
Although robot FT-8 is currently not widespread, we are wanting to get in front of and prevent it from being a widespread We should look at 1) specific complaints, 2) long duration 24-7 operations outside the contests, 3) series of 24-7 runs of shorter number of days duration out side a contest. and following a pattern.
73
David A. Norris, K5UZ
Director, Delta Division
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:17 PM, Jay Bromley <jayw5jay at cox.net> wrote:
HI Joel and Dave,
I have a question Dave. What does the ARRL considered a continuous string of contacts? 24/7? Are not contests continuous string or can be? If you think you have seen a continuous string, wait until FT4 hits the digital contests later in the fall. What is the difference, once you upload, if you are running stations, it will be a continuous string of QSOs.
Have a look at my QRZ.com page https://www.qrz.com/db/W5JAY I have a continuous string just a few nights ago and I wasn’t feeling well or that would have been more!
I’ve worked this FT8 mode a lot and never found a robot station. Maybe I will get lucky someday and work one, hi. I know of one guy overseas that show how to do it and even he suggested it was just an exercise from what I remember. I have opened and closed the band and never could detect a Robot station working a continuous string of QSOs.
Using JTAlert I can see who is online and texting them they will reply. A robot will not. Even then, with multiple screens here, a message could be missed.
I must travel around great ops with integrity!! I have never seen this in the flesh. I do hang around some guys that could do this, still they don’t.
Is this really a huge problem?
73 de w5jay/jay..
From: adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net <adxa-bounces at mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of David Norris via ADXA
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 7:03 PM
To: w5zn at w5zn.org
Cc: ADXA <ADXA at mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [ADXA] FT8 Robots a no-no
Joel,
That’s exactly how this can be enforced! We can write a routine in either TQSL or LOTW that will flag long term continuous QSO’s and then we can examine the subject log/ham and lock the account if warranted. We won’t catch them all but we can make an example of the most flagrant violators. We pretty much know who they are already.
73
David A. Norris, K5UZ
Director, Delta Division
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 21, 2019, at 4:58 PM, "w5zn at w5zn.org" <w5zn at w5zn.org> wrote:
I’m pleased to see this however I’m curious how this will be enforced.
Other than having a boatload of Q’s in rapid secession from a log submission what indicators are available that would flag a submitted QSL card or an LOTW record that it was made in via this technique??
ZN
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 21, 2019, at 2:44 PM, David Norris via ADXA <adxa at mailman.qth.net> wrote:
This will apply to ALL ARRL awards and contests.
73
David A. Norris, K5UZ
Director, Delta Division
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 21, 2019, at 3:55 PM, Rory Bowers <k6cks01 at gmail.com> wrote:
For all of you who have been wondering about all the chatter about FT8 Robots making contacts automatically while the OM is in the other room sipping coffee... I just skimmed this off of the WSJT reflector:
For those operators who run a Robot Version of WSJTx
35. Ms, Jairam moved, seconded by Mr. Williams:
WHEREAS, there has been a growing concern over fully automated contacts being made and claimed for DXCC credit, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, on the recommendation of the Programs and Services Committee, the Board directs that DXCC rule 6 be amended to add 6a, as the following: 6a. Each contact claimed for DXCC credit must include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact. Initiation of a contact may be locally or by remote.
It is now officially a no-no for ARRL awards. This rule addition specifically states "DXCC" but I would imagine that it will be applied to all ARRL awards as well.
73,
Rory, K5CKS
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