[600MRG] WAS Emergency Traffic on 630m NOW: I dunno - general complaining about the state of MF and LF???
William Cromwell
wrcromwell at gmail.com
Tue Nov 30 23:07:57 EST 2021
Hi,
QMN, The Michigan Traffic Net has occasionally moved to 160 meters as
propagation dictated. QMN claims to be the oldest CW traffic net still
on the air. 18:30 and 22:00 Eastern time weeknights on 3563 kHz +/- QRM.
73,
Bill KU8H
bark less - wag more
On 11/30/21 5:43 PM, Anthony Good wrote:
> Side question: How much emcomm use does 160 meters get?
>
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:37 PM John Langridge <kb5njd at gmail.com
> <mailto:kb5njd at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Boy we are about to creep way off Warren's original topic :-)
>
> > I suppose if an emergency were declared, 630m might be restricted to
> > emcommm for the stricken area. So Winlink would be OK.
>
> I suppose that is possible but I seriously doubt it would ever be on
> the table to actually happen for many of the other reasons previously
> discussed. I just don't see it happening.
>
> But, getting back to the point of equipment:
>
> Between Kenwood, Elecraft and Icom, there are plenty of radios that do
> a great job making low level signals and have good, capable receivers
> but its almost like the manufacturers hide these facts when they could
> really be using them as selling points. Elecraft is really the only
> one that makes any effort to take advantage of it but even they miss
> the mark. People are often surprised that the newer Kenwood or Icom
> radios operate at 472. This came up recently with a new station that
> is using an Icom. Icom doesnt even bother to mention not to run the
> power up because the output is dirty above drive level. Or that you
> need an external low pass filter..so that is one point that has to be
> fixed going forward but in general its off manufacturer's radar. I
> don't know how that gets fixed so people know that their radios
> generate a signal that can be amplified...Responses are rare when a
> conversation attempt is initiated.
>
> And then there are amplifiers to be paired with these drive level
> rigs.... K5DNL shuttered his amp operation at the beginning of the
> year and while there are still plenty of plans out there on the
> internet for a wide variety of great amps in addition to offerings by
> G0MRF and that kit operation out of VK, people *seem* unwilling to
> build or even assemble. It's not everyone but people I encountered
> regularly pre-2020 would always comment that they might give it a try
> once they could go over to HRO and put down their card and buy a turn
> key station. Of course, we are still waiting on them and will be
> waiting for them for a long time....
>
> Probably the closest thing to turn key and bullet proof is the monitor
> sensors transverters but the common complaint there is that its
> pricey. There ain't no free lunch... Stuff costs what it costs.
>
> After transitioning to the Rig Expert, I realized that my modified MFJ
> was never much more than an antenna dipper. Getting further away from
> 50 Ohm's meant that the numbers were meaningless so trying to make
> calculations and decisions were a shot in the dark. I found that with
> the numbers from the Rig Expert, however, I could actually develop
> networks that were in the ball park enough to respond to a reactive
> antenna and make it work. I'm sure today the nanoVNA is the successor
> and touts even better results. Always more do-dads...
>
> The act of resonating and matching is easy enough when following the
> procedures and not cutting corners on materials and "the process"...
> But that's the trick... too many won't follow those step and then
> they give up and that is one less signal on the air with a workable
> signal....
>
> yes, I've let this rant devolve into complaining at this point
> somehow. I do hope a few more prospective ops will take the plunge
> this season, take a chance and build something and get on the air.
> There are a lot of sharks circling for new blood... There are also
> plenty of guys willing to help. You just have to ask.
>
> 73... I'm done... Warren got more than be bargained for ;-p
>
>
> John..
>
>
> On 11/30/21, Ed Cole <kl7uw at acsalaska.net
> <mailto:kl7uw at acsalaska.net>> wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > OK, just a couple more comments:
> > I suppose if an emergency were declared, 630m might be restricted to
> > emcommm for the stricken area. So Winlink would be OK.
> >
> > Emcom organizations would provide the digital stuff and one
> would only
> > need the antenna, 630m equipment, and a radio with computer I/F.
> >
> > My K3 operates on 630m at mw level via the transverter I/F board
> and my
> > modified NDB Beacon drives at that level to provide 100w into
> 50-ohm.
> > My antenna loading coil matches 50-ohm to 20-ohm antenna
> resistance at
> > 630m.
> >
> > I modified a MFJ-269B to work at 400-800 Hz so merely connected
> it in
> > series with the ground and bottom end of the coil. Moved the
> antenna
> > tap until there was minimum reactance (that turned out with
> R=20). If
> > you have strong nearby broadcast stations, they can affect the
> meter. I
> > was lucky that 920 KHz was the only local AM station. I
> recently bought
> > a new MFJ-269D which covers 100Hz to 470 MHz.
> >
> > I found the 50-ohm tap by watching the MFJ connected to the coax and
> > moving another tap (about 2 turn above ground. Bird 43 Meter
> with 100H
> > element shows good match, though underreads power. I have a RF
> ammeter
> > on the NDB transmitter to set output (1.4 amps-rms at 50-ohm).
> >
> > The K3 needs the upgraded synthesizer boards to operate below
> 490 KHz.
> > K3s and the new K4 have that as standard.
> >
> > Since the NDB operates with xtal control one only needs to drive at
> > under mw levels (I pulled the XOSC and coupled with a 0.1 uF disc
> > ceramic cap. The first driver past the BP coil (adjustable
> 250-500 KHz)
> > is a 2N2222. The NDB is a Southern Avionics unit (I bought
> surplus for
> > $40).
> >
> > 73, Ed - KL7uW
> >
> > On 11/30/2021 11:18 AM, John Langridge wrote:
> >> Hi Ed,
> >>
> >>> I think most of the HF emergency comms are using a digital
> mode. That
> >>> would work on
> >> 630m but how much spectrum would it occupy on 630m?
> >>
> >> Yes, a lot (but not all) of that is using Pactor and Winlink,
> >> particularly when operator resources are limited. Because of BW
> >> requirements I've also avoided opening that pandora's box.
> >>
> >>
> >>> CW
> >>> would be simple but running a digital mode more useful as text
> could be
> >>> printed at either end.
> >>
> >>
> >> yes, but this operation I described was intended to be a simple
> >> exercise without a bunch of hardware and interconnects to
> "borrowed"
> >> transceivers or laptops. Im not much of a digital op anyway...
> >>
> >>
> >>> Biggest challenge for 630m is the antenna. A 40-foot high T
> would be no
> >>> more challenge than setting a HF antenna during FD. Ground
> radials
> >>> would probably take the most effort/time.
> >>
> >> Yes. The physical setup is not so much an issue, but radial
> setup in
> >> the heat or cold could be a factor. The real issue seems to be the
> >> fundamental understanding of R and X and being able to follow the
> >> simple steps to both resonate and match an antenna. I can't
> tell you
> >> how many hams just can't keep from looking at an SWR meter
> instead of
> >> following what is happening with R and X on their analyzer as they
> >> make adjustments.. it turns a 5 minute exercise into one that is 20
> >> minutes or more. I've watched it happen on many occasions...But
> >> antenna related issues are probably the #1 complication followed by
> >> #2, which is readily available equipment or "ready to go, out
> of the
> >> box" hardware.
> >>
> >> Anyway, this is all probably off topic from Warren's original
> >> questions. Warren, I'm not aware of a single instance under
> part 97
> >> rules where hams have been called to use 472 for emergency
> traffic but
> >> the potential is there and the core guys on the air every night
> could
> >> get it done if they were called to action.
> >>
> >> 73!
> >>
> >> John..
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/30/21, Ed Cole <kl7uw at acsalaska.net
> <mailto:kl7uw at acsalaska.net>> wrote:
> >>> John,
> >>>
> >>> This experience repeats what Laurence-KL7L and I did the
> summer of 2012
> >>> as experimental licensees on 495-KHz
> >>>
> >>> I would transmit 100w at the transmitter with est 4w EIRP and
> Laurence
> >>> would receive it about 70 miles north showing 35 dB above
> noise solid
> >>> signals every time. We sked at noon every Saturday for most
> of the
> >>> summer.
> >>>
> >>> I was using a 43-foot high by 130-foot inverted-L with two
> parallel
> >>> wires separated 2-foot. I had three radial of 2-foot chicken
> wire laid
> >>> on the ground 50 to 70-foot long. Fourth radial was my
> 120-foot run of
> >>> 1-5/8 inch hardline from support tower to the house (shield
> grounded at
> >>> both ends).
> >>>
> >>> That 50-foot support tower came down in high winds a year ago so I
> >>> decided to run my 80m dipole with ladder line strung at
> 40-foot in a T
> >>> configuration with ladder line shorted and fed by a large base
> coil
> >>> (essentially the same antenna as you used). Things didn't get
> done this
> >>> year.
> >>>
> >>> I plan to run a 40m dipole at right angles to the 80m dipole
> feed point
> >>> so both will act as top loading the T configuration. I plan
> to "plant"
> >>> up to 8 radial wires in the lawn by splitting the sod with an
> axe and
> >>> pushing the wire into the slot that results. Hope to have that
> working
> >>> by end of next summer.
> >>>
> >>> I think most of the HF emergency comms are using a digital
> mode. That
> >>> would work on 630m but how much spectrum would it occupy on 630m?
> >>>
> >>> Biggest challenge for 630m is the antenna. A 40-foot high T
> would be no
> >>> more challenge than setting a HF antenna during FD. Ground
> radials
> >>> would probably take the most effort/time.
> >>>
> >>> 100% reliable range should extend to maybe 200-miles (or
> more?). CW
> >>> would be simple but running a digital mode more useful as text
> could be
> >>> printed at either end. I was involved in professional emcomm
> at my
> >>> workplace 1994-2009 (Head of Comm dept.).
> >>>
> >>> 73, Ed - KL7UW (ex WD2XSH-45)
> >>> http://www.kl7uw.com/630m.htm <http://www.kl7uw.com/630m.htm>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/30/2021 9:54 AM, John Langridge wrote:
> >>>> Hi Warren,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> About 3 years ago KE7A and I exchanged radiogram traffic on
> CW between
> >>>> one another at field day. At the time we were about 100
> miles apart
> >>>> and we were both using a Monitor Sensors transverter (50w),
> bucket
> >>>> coil (that went to WM3M after the event) and a ladder line
> fed dipole
> >>>> that this particular club's field day site was using on their CW
> >>>> station. I temporarily configured it as a Martconi T, about
> 40 foot
> >>>> tall with just a very minimal number of radials. I would
> have to look
> >>>> at my notes for estimated EIRP but it was very low but there
> were no
> >>>> problems in passing the traffic, even with summer noise and
> storms
> >>>> that were in the area, as I recall.
> >>>>
> >>>> We exchanged three pieces of traffic and I used it as a topic
> for a CQ
> >>>> article on tactical comms on 630m. UTC notification had been
> >>>> submitted for the site of the exercise about 6 months prior.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can tell you that it has been a hard sell to the traffic
> folks since
> >>>> it requires a little more effort than the typical plug and
> play ham
> >>>> radio and we really aren't doing anything on the mechanical
> side in
> >>>> software... It's just good old-fashion radio.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't say that this exercise had any influence but I was
> encouraged
> >>>> to see the RRI folks talking about prospects of doing the same
> >>>> scenario on 160m using the same type of setup just a few
> months after
> >>>> my article went to press. SO perhaps there are some "baby
> steps" at
> >>>> play. I should have followed up at the time and asked a few more
> >>>> questions to them but I did not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Traffic handling is changing a lot and has been for quite
> some time.
> >>>> I tried to offer this exercise from the perspective of just
> another
> >>>> tool in the bag for a traffic handler that wanted to be really
> >>>> prepared. Whether it hit home or "stuck", I can't say. As a
> >>>> semi-regular op on a state level CW traffic net, I can tell
> you that
> >>>> no one has ever asked me to QSY to 630m to pass a piece of
> traffic but
> >>>> I would be happy to if they ask.
> >>>>
> >>>> So in summary, we did it on 630m to show it could be done
> with minimal
> >>>> hardware and that value could be realized from doing it (in
> this case
> >>>> the recipient received their traffic). Had there been a real
> >>>> emergency, we could have done it. Ground wave was stable and
> strong
> >>>> enough and we didn't have to compete with QRO stations during the
> >>>> field day period on HF to send the same traffic. Obviously no
> >>>> emergency in this case, but like most traffic nets, they are
> training
> >>>> opportunities.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just my perspective.
> >>>>
> >>>> 73,
> >>>>
> >>>> John KB5NJD..
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 11/30/21, Warren Ziegler <wd2xgj at gmail.com
> <mailto:wd2xgj at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>> It's been some years now since U.S. Amateurs have been
> allowed to use
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> 472-479 KHz band. The justification was that it would be
> useful for
> >>>>> emergency traffic. Just wondering how many of you have handled
> >>>>> emergency
> >>>>> comms on 630m? If so, can you provide details on the nature
> of the
> >>>>> emergency and why you chose 630m to pass the traffic?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tnx & 73 Warren K2ORS
> >>>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
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