[50mhz] Re: 50mhz Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8

Fri Sep 21 16:37:41 EDT 2007

Hi all,

If anyone has an Ameritron RCS-4 Remote coax switch for sale, please contact 
me at dan-schaaf at att.net.

Thanks and 73
Dan K3ZXL
Best Regards
Dan Schaaf
K3ZXL   www.k3zxl.com   "In the Beginning, there was Spark Gap"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <50mhz-request at mailman.qth.net>
To: <50mhz at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:02 AM
Subject: 50mhz Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: 50mhz Digest, Vol 42, Issue 15 (Dan Schaaf)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:55:35 -0400
> From: "Dan Schaaf" <dan-schaaf at att.net>
> Subject: [50mhz] Re: 50mhz Digest, Vol 42, Issue 15
> To: <50mhz at mailman.qth.net>
> Message-ID: <005a01c7e385$9f5d0ee0$c800470a at DELL>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hi,
>
> This is not directly related to 50 MHz. I have questions about 70 cm and
> duplexors for 2 m/ 70 cm. I will be happy to discuss off forum if this is
> not the appropriate place to discuss it. My direct email is
> dan-schaaf at att.net
>
> Otherwise, I will be happy to discuss it here.
>
> Best Regards
> Dan Schaaf
> K3ZXL   www.k3zxl.com   "In the Beginning, there was Spark Gap"
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <50mhz-request at mailman.qth.net>
> To: <50mhz at mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:04 AM
> Subject: 50mhz Digest, Vol 42, Issue 15
>
>
>> Send 50mhz mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Good gain verticals? (Bill W5WVO)
>>   2. Re: Good gain verticals? (mweisbergs at juno.com)
>>   3. Gain Vertical Comments (J. Coote)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:35:33 -0600
>> From: "Bill W5WVO" <w5wvo at cybermesa.net>
>> Subject: Re: [50mhz] Good gain verticals?
>> To: <cboone at earthlink.net>, <kd4wov at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: 50mhz at mailman.qth.net
>> Message-ID: <08c001c7d2b6$e73c5480$0300a8c0 at BILLSLAPTOP>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>>> When the band is open, it doesnt really matter as to polarization.
>>
>> I've always believed this, because the polarization would obviously get
>> skewed
>> in the active ionospheric layer. BUT... I've never seen any results from 
>> a
>> side-by-side test using a horizontal and vertical antenna of the same 
>> gain
>> (dBi) at the same elevation above ground during an E opening to see if
>> this is
>> really true. Has anybody here ever actually done this, or something
>> approximating it?
>>
>> The reason for my skepticism is that sporadic-E couds are very highly
>> charged,
>> very planar (i.e., flat), and very thin -- all compared to the F layer,
>> which
>> is structured very differently and refracts signals gradually back to
>> earth.
>> E-clouds tend to act more like reflectors (mirrors) than refractors. The
>> flatter and more highly charged the surface of the E cloud is, the less
>> polarity distortion should take place. Theoretically.  :-)
>>
>> Which would imply that a horizontally polarized antenna of the same gain
>> and
>> same elevation as a vertical might work better during strong sporadic-E
>> openings (assuming, as is the case, that most stations are also using
>> horizontally polarized antennas for DX work).
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Bill / W5WVO
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:49:40 -0400
>> From: mweisbergs at juno.com
>> Subject: Re: [50mhz] Good gain verticals?
>> To: 50mhz at mailman.qth.net
>> Message-ID: <20070730.164941.-280669.1.mweisbergs at juno.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:35:33 -0600 "Bill W5WVO" <w5wvo at cybermesa.net>
>> writes:
>>
>>> in the active ionospheric layer. BUT... I've never seen any results
>>> from a  side-by-side test using a horizontal and vertical antenna of
>> the
>>> same gain  (dBi) at the same elevation above ground during an E opening
>> to see
>>> if this is  really true. Has anybody here ever actually done this, or
>> something
>>> approximating it?
>>
>> There was a study done in the 50's, hosted by Oliver P Ferrel, an editor
>> of CQ Mag. I'll see if I can find it in "my archives"
>>
>>
>>> The reason for my skepticism is that sporadic-E couds are very  highly
>> charged,
>>> very planar (i.e., flat), and very thin -- all compared to the F
>> layer, which
>>> is structured very differently and refracts signals gradually back  to
>> earth.
>>> E-clouds tend to act more like reflectors (mirrors) than refractors.
>> The
>>> flatter and more highly charged the surface of the E cloud is, the
>> less  polarity distortion should take place. Theoretically.  :-)
>>
>> I don't subscribe to this... thick or thin, refracted or reflected, the
>> "bounce" results in a randomized polarity, whether the bounce takes place
>> terrestrially or in the ionosphere. A more highly charged cloud (greater
>> ion density) results primarily in stronger signals and a higher MUF.
>> That's why, when the clouds are really charged, 2m opens up.
>>
>>
>>> Which would imply that a horizontally polarized antenna of the same
>> gain and  same elevation as a vertical might work better during strong
>> sporadic-E  openings (assuming, as is the case, that most stations are
>> also  using
>> horizontally polarized antennas for DX work).
>>
>> A more viable explanation regarding the apparent superiority of
>> horizontal over vertical during E-skip is in the nature of the skip.
>> Assuming the textbook skip distance of 1200-1400 miles for a single hop,
>> the E signal approaches the antenna at a far steeper angle than it does
>> during F skip. When that skip shortens up to several hundred miles, the
>> angle is steeper yet and interesting things happen. Indeed, I have often
>> experienced -- while trying to peak a signal by turning the beam -- the
>> situation of very little change in the signal, certainly not the usual
>> 20db F/B ratio. The reason is that more of the signal is coming down on
>> the driven-element than is coming across the directors. In other words,
>> I've got a rotating horizontal dipole. That same signal, approaching a
>> vertical antenna, is mostly in its dead-zone, hence the pronounced
>> difference in reception.
>>
>> Guys with az-el rotors might try elevating their antennas during a
>> short-hop session and see what difference it makes.
>>
>> An interesting historical note... back in antiquity, before the Brits got
>> 6M, we would work them 6M/10M crossband (full duplex!) and I, for one,
>> was getting decent signal reports. Many if not most of the G's were using
>> their TV antennas to feed their converters and those were all vertically
>> polarized with moderate gain.
>>
>> Bud K2YOF
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:10:06 -0700
>> From: "J. Coote" <TSCM at jps.net>
>> Subject: [50mhz] Gain Vertical Comments
>> To: <50mhz at mailman.qth.net>
>> Message-ID: <OCEJKAMADJMKIEKGMBMDMEDPDEAA.TSCM at jps.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> List-
>> Thanks for all the responses to my questions regarding antennas for 6M
>> 73
>> Jay
>> W6CJ
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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